clutch master for a '73

[champagne superbeetle]

I am interested in a '73 that supposedly needs a clutch master. I remember from previous posts here the manual transmissions have difficult to find parts. I did a few searches here and the clutch master seems to be part of that problem.

The car is 2,000 miles from where I live. Is there something I can do to have it fixed or rebuilt near where it is now? Can the car (assuming it is in otherwise decent shape) be nursed home before such a repair is made? If I can get it home (short of having it shipped unrepaired), is there a solution my VW mechanic can do to get the car in a satisfactory condition?

(I will call the car's current owner and my mechanic tomorrow but you guys have so much knowledge, I wanted to touch base here as well.)

If there is a source or an eBay link that would be helpful to my cause, that would be great, too. I am not too mechanically inclined and probably won't be until I have a house with a garage.

[wildthings]

I would recommend having it shipped. You can probably get that done for around 500-600 bucks. In my experience you will get better prices from car haulers using the net than you will by using the phone.

I have no experience with the clutch master as I have only dealt with automatics in T4s. I wouldn't think that replacing it would be a big deal, but I would bet that there are other things wrong with the car that could make that 2000 mile trip home a nightmare.

[raygreenwood]

The actual act of replacing it is pretty easy. But...getting one is hard. If teh cylinder is in good shape they are easy to rebuild. You can use the seals and brass flap rings ONLY....not the pistons .....from a vanagon master cylinder. You will need to lightly hone the cylinder. Then using 1000+ grit sandpaper....lap out teh hone marks. This is about 30 minutes work total.
As long as the piston has no corrosion on the areas where the brass flap seals seat.....and no rust pis in teh cylinder walls....this will work like brand new.

The easier way...is to install the complete vanagon clutch master cylinder. It is the same stroke length and volume. You will need to buy a simple piece of 3/4" angle iron and drill two 6mm holes in the top leg to mount the cylinder to the angle iron and two 12mm holes in the other leg to bolt up to the pedal cluster.....both sets in proper location and slightly oversized. This will work great. Ray

[ubercrap]

I know the exact car you are talking about and was thinking the same thing- fly in and fix, drive away! I would have the advantage of having a car to test fit everything before I left, though, if fitting the Vanagon clutch master. I believe it was in recent history, represented a daily driver or at least a reliable driver. The guy who is selling the NOS dash and nice engine lid on ebay I believe used to own it. For the price it is now, it is a smoking bargain I think.

[champagne superbeetle]

Thanks for the answers, guys. One quick follow-up ... Is a 411 manual transaxle compatible with a 412?

Edit: My mechanic was intrigued by the Vanagon master cylinder solution. After talking with him and some thought, I have another follow-up ... Are all Vanagons the same in this regard, or are we just talking about the air-cooled ones?

[raygreenwood]

Yes, the 411 manual....at least for the most part on this continent is essentially the same.
However, there are a few differences to be aware of. In the very few 1971 model 411's that showed up here, there were still some 1970 model 411 manual transmissions. I have only seen one in my life. It has a different bell housing design. It still bolts up and runs fine, but has a totally different design of clutch fork and slave cylinder (19mm slave cylinder). I do not think that part is any easier to get. In fact...probably harder since most of the few 4 speeds that came here were the late pattern with the 44mm slave cylinder.
There were also a few internal designs. The early 411 had one less synchro ring on one of the gears. I can't remember which one....but it is in the haynes manual.
Note of advice....DO NO discard a single piece of a broken or worn 411/412 manual transmission. Especially if there are no major damage per-se to the ring and pinion or the gear sets.
The entire gear section of one transmission can be swapped to the final drive of another to make complete servicable transmissions. Also...when it comes time to replace synchros...which are non-available......many times it can be as simple as swapping in one from another tranny to regain some tolrance. Ray

[champagne superbeetle]

Fantastic. Thanks for the answer.

So, I will ask the doodle selling the 411 manual if it has the 44mm slave cylinder or not. IF it does, and IF the '73 is as okay otherwise as advertised, and IF I can find someone where the car presently is to do the swap all before anything sells, I can pursue buying this car IF I can arrange the trip to minimize taking time off.

Of course, the other option of shipping the car and tranny, both, to my mechanic's shop so he can take care of it is still in play. Then my flight to see the car will have to be a round tripper. We'll see.

Thanks again.

[raygreenwood]

There are a few issues that you could take care of and then just try to drive the car back. Personally...I have little faith that even a decent VW mechanic who normally works on beetles.....will be able to get you rolling with a minimum of false starts.

In the clutch system...generally when the car has sat for a while....all that is rubber is bad. That means that even if the rest of the parts look good....if you replace one ...it almost always craps the other.

Here are the parts that will generally be a hazard:
(1) Bad seals in the clutch master
(2) Bad rubber connection line at the tail of the transaxle.
(3) bad clutch slave.

If there were a handful of things you could throw in a bad and arrive at the car to fix it and then drive it away....these would be them:

(1) Go to a Flaps. Buy a dual cicuit 19mm slave cylinder for a VW rabbit. They are very cheap and the seals and flap vlaves can be used to rebuild your clutch master. Throw the rest away.
(2) Go to Mcmastercarr.com (unless you know someplace local to you) and by a 3/4" flex-hone brand honing brush. Throw that in the bag. Assortment of basic wrenches and sockets, an 0-ring pick and some screwdrivers.
(3) Get an old 44mm slave cylinder. There are more than a few people here who could help you for cheap.

(5) Go to a local hydraulic shop. Bring them the piston for the 44mm. You will not end up getting what will permanetly be ....the correct seal for this...but you will get one that works. It will need to be Either EPDM or EPR rubber...or Buna-N....nothing else. It will nt be metric so it will fit tight. They will not have a shaft seal style cup (which is what the slave uses)...but they will have a "V"-cup....get a thin obe and ask for a "backing ring". Get about three sets...you never know. These will all be under $15.
Get some 600,800,1200 grit sandpaper at the autobody section of any FLAPS. Use this to clean up the 44mm. Cylinder and piston.
Now you can rebuild he slave before you leave...all except the outer boot.

Lastly ...source about 4' of steel line with the correctfittings...male for the slave end and ....the same metric male at the other end.

Now...go to your local parts house and ask for the rubber connecting hose to the vanagon clutch slave. Between this hose and the 4' piece of double male connection tubing you have...you will be able to perfectly hook up and bleed the slave and the master cylinder kit you have scavenged.
The V-ring rebuild kits for teh slave are good for a bout 15k miles. Ray

[champagne superbeetle]

There are a few issues that you could take care of and then just try to drive the car back. Personally...I have little faith that even a decent VW mechanic who normally works on beetles.....will be able to get you rolling with a minimum of false starts.

Y'know, I am so used to the mechanics at the shop I go to, I didn't consider this. I should have, though. I get comments and solicitations about my Super Beetle a fair amount until I ask them if they deal with Type 4 engines which my Super has. Then, I get a winced expression and the conversation usually dies after that.

(3) Get an old 44mm slave cylinder. There are more than a few people here who could help you for cheap.

(5) Go to a local hydraulic shop...

Is/Was there a #4?

Thanks for the intense answer. I will run it by "the advisors" at the shop I frequent and see if they can give this novice a tutorial on what you said. In the meanwhile, I am finding the 412 seller difficult to contact.

[raygreenwood]

The real issues...for instance...in working on a type 4 hydraulic clutch system is that unless they HAVE worked on one....they may not know exactly what to expect. Of course in this case...the object is simply getting it mobile.
The clutch system is a little tricky to bleed. Not hard...just tricky. Most espcially if all of the parts are not perfect.

In several respects, the type 4 clutch slave was slightly defective in the first place. It had a short lifespan and was prone to slowly sucking air back in.
Don't worry about that right now....you can solve all of this when you get it home.

[champagne superbeetle]

I got sidetracked looking at other VWs at my daughter's and wife's request but I am back on this again...

anyone looking for [a 412 manual tranny]? came out of a car that lost an engine. it would include the pedal assembly stuff as well.

Would this include a cure to my dilemma?

I am so intrigued by this 412 that is for sale, I can't stand it.

[raygreenwood]

If it has a good working clutch master and slave....it could get you going at least for now. Also....you WILL guaranteed at some point need to wrok on the transmission to stave off some inherent oriblems (call them birth defects ). It is super to have either a tranny to swap in or one for spare parts for this car, In fact I think its required in my opinion. I also like the idea of having at the very least....spare cylinder castings and things on hand to work with. If I had the money right now I would buy the parts. Ray

[champagne superbeetle]

How about approaching this from a different angle ... (just trying to figure out the best options, short and long term) ... Can I get a new transaxle from a reputable place that would fit the bill?

The car may lose points for no longer having an original part, but then finding replacement parts would be easier when needed and those "birth defects" would be put to rest.

(My Super Beetle got a new tranny when it got the Type IV engine installed; that's where I got this idea, stupid or not.)

Oh, and I would have to talk to the shop I go to about storing spare trannies. Our next house will have a garage and (hopefully) a bigger shed ... but I have no such luxuries right now.

[Wally]

A new clutch master was recently sold on ebay for 225 euros!

[champagne superbeetle]

A new clutch master was recently sold on ebay for 225 euros!

If the car I am interested in is as described, I would have paid the US equivalent.