HELP! - with 1971 411LE mechanic/shop in LA area

[411NUT]

Back after a 2-year 411 hibernation from this forum! Glad to see it's still here.

Does anyone know of a 411 repair shop or private mechanic (mechanical restorations) in the LA area (near Montebello) where they speak and love '411'? (nothing to do with '911')

Our jewel just got a new battery but the steering (and a bunch of other stuff) needs fixing.

Thanks heaps!

[raygreenwood]

Whats wrong with the steering? You will be hard pressed anywhere in the country to find someone who works specifically on 411/412's.....if they work on them at all. It sould not be too hard to find someone who works on the engine....maybe not the injection...but the engine yes.
It would be best to have an idea of what is wrong with your steering before you take the car to a competent mechanic. Installing parts on the front end is not really any harder than working on a superbeetle.
But....parts are extremely hard to find. Some are non-existent. If you end up at a shop and they take it apart to diagnose.....chances are about 100% that it can sit there for ages while everyone looks for parts.

Things that are usually wrong...on 100% of all of these cars....is the centerlink, the idler arm bushing and the ball joints. If your ball joints are tight and unrusted.....buy a pair of bus ball joints....take the boot off and install it on yours...and drill a hole in the center for a grease fitting. Yours will last forever. You can still find new ball joints but its very rare.

A new centerlink can still be found. Its about $125 to $180. It also has in it...the same flaw that kills them all. That would be the nylon packings. Good for about 50K miles. You can rebuild yours with bronze bushings and it will be superb and last forever.

The idler bushing was also defective. Locate a very late bronze superbeetle bushing and it presses right in. Lasts forever.

The centering rings on the radius arms go out. This part was never sold very much as far as I know. I had some made out of delrin. Its just a grommet...but very necessary for track control.

The radius arm donuts. You can make these from soft (nothing harder than 60 durometer) Urethane sheet....or keep your old ones.

Control arm bushings. Non-existent. You can make them easilyfrom glass-filled delrin, or in a pinch...buy the VW rabbit control arm bushings. Look for the aftermarket Urethane ones. These can be easily modified to work well.

The strut cartridges....tough one. Some can be found. Even the late ones can be made to work on an early 411. Problem is that most of these have been on the shelf for twenty years. You takes your chances.
You can use the KYB Gr-2 for a golf (not the gas-a-just) and make an adaptor stub for the top. This is a superb handling upgrade. I can e-mail you the diagram and measurements for these stubs.

The strut bushings on the 411 as early as yours are probably the non-ballbearing type. You can use the later ball bearing models with sysmmetrical bolt pattern from late 411 and early 412...or you can use the late 412 models wit hassymetrical bolt pattern...do some trimming and drill a couple extra holes and have a much better bushing and bearing.

All of these upgrades have been talked about at length here. If you plan to drive the car on a regular basis....collect all of these parts and do it all at once. It can be done in a weekend. If not....one worn part tends to destroy everything attached to it in a 411/412. So putting in a couple of new parts and waiting...tends to do nothing but wear things out. Welcome back! Ray

[411NUT]

Thanks for your thorough reply, Ray!

I'm afraid you are WAY over my head with what may be wrong with the steering and how to fix it. The mechanic's comment was: "Steering Components worn".

Symptoms are that at about 15mph the car (front end) starts to shake violently (front wheels are probably wobbling). We had the wheels balanced a few months ago and that helped for a while. Also, a friend told us that bad tires (rotted, cracked from sitting for a long time) would contribute to the shaking.

How about this brief mechanic's summary: * = immediate fixes needed

*Fuel line leaks* (DONE)
*Fuel Filter*
*Brake Fluid Flush*
*Repack Wheel Bearings*
*Front Brakes*

Then:

Replace fuel injectors (only 1 leaking but recommendation was to replace all 4)
Throttle diaphragm bad
Distributor Cap arched
Intake Boot torn
Trans Pan leaking
Trans Fluid dirty
Oil leaks
CV Boot torn
Axle Seals leaking
Front Suspension Bushings dry rotted
Brake flush
Rear Suspension worn
Various Vacuum components torn/missing
Cap, Rotors, Wires, Plugs, Windshield Wipers worn
Rotors rusted
Alignment
Belts worn and cracked

Other than that, the jewel is in great shape!

Tuna, you're in the Southland - any suggestions on where we might get repairs done?

[wildthings]

A low speed wobble like you are talking about is probably caused by either a bent wheel or bad tire. Jack each of your front wheels up and spin them. Watch both the wheel and the tread to see if everything runs true. You can also drive very slowly with your hands off the steering wheel and watch the movement of the wheel. If it oscillates back and forth then it will be either wheels or tires.

I agree with Ray that if you take it to a shop it will end up spending a lot of time there while parts are found. Do a lot of asking around to find a place that may have recently done suspension work on a T4. This is not your everyday car and suspension parts availability is the worse.

Ball joints and center links show up on eBay from time to time and go for quite a bit. Some places still seem to have some old stock of front struts, but not the better brands. Strut only show up on eBay very rarely.

The rest of your list sounds like pretty normal stuff and shouldn't be to bad a problem.

[411NUT]

Thanks. wildthings!

We'll check out the tires and wheels next and go from there. That sounds a lot easier to fix than steering component problems!

[raygreenwood]

Wildthing is spot on. If your car has sat motionless for over 6 months....its about 80% that your tres are permanetly "flat-spotted". They will never not wobble. If the car sat motionless for more than a couple years.....the stock rims have a tendency to spread at the spot closest to the ground. You can only see this with the tire off and the rim either bolted to an axle or a balance machine. You have to be right in front of it...axialy...to see the spread. But....what it causes on the pavement is an up and down oscillation at most any speed. Ray

[411NUT]

Thanks for the confirmation, Ray! We'll have the tires as well as rims checked and hopefully that will solve the main wobble problem. The tires have been on the car for all those 8 years it was sitting in a garage - and then many more months/years, parked on the street. There is very little wear on the tires but they are cracked (and maybe rotted?) from the long standing and the heat! But we can live with (and drive with) a little play in the steering, if new tires solve the main problem.

8000+ posts - WOW! Your 411/412 knowledge must be 'priceless'

[tuna]

Unfortunately I don't know of anyone that is familiar with the 411/412 that I can recommend. Most VW "mechanics" won't take the job or they'll botch it up because they don't understand it's unique nature. If I think of someone, I'll let you know.

Tuna

[raygreenwood]

Actually....I would recommend that you work on your 411 yourself. Its really not that hard at all. Collect the parts first....and do it once and do it right.
Proceed slowly. The tools are not unique either.
The issue here is that you should have ALL of the parts that are expendable with age....not just the ones you "think" may be bad. Trust. Me they are 30 years old. Everything is shot.

We can outline this for you. If you have the tools...and a weekend....and a flat spot on concrete with some shade (garage not necessary). You can rebuild the front end in a day. Ray

[411NUT]

Ray,

I ventured out into tire land today and found out that 165 80 15 tires are not in great abundance around these parts! Kumho is about it. I'm still getting prices. Found a good parts place on the Web: AutoPartsWarehouse.com Will order the brake pads and some other stuff from them.

Also found a good local VW parts place (German Auto Parts in Santa Fe Springs).

I've thought about doing as much of this myself as I dare tackle - time and space are no problems, $$$ is always a problem but KNOW-HOW and an excess number of thumbs are a worry. What if I end up with a driveway full of parts that don't seem to fit?!

What tools do I need to replace the front pads? Will a place like Kragen have those?

I may chicken out of the brakes job and start with the windshield washer replacement (AutoPartsWarehouse has all those parts). I had a 'go' at that before and jury-rigged the hose but I think I'm better off replacing the whole lot (motor, nozzle & hose). I was amazed to find out back then that the air pressure from the spare tire is used to operate the washer!

I'm more comfortable with tackling this project in logical chunks (like the washer stuff), rather than assembling all the parts and getting thoroughly confused! How would you break the repairs into those chunks? I'm thinking that there are undoubtedly many hoses that are rotted and they should all be checked and replaced to see what then functions or doesn't function. The mechanic I just went to to fix the fuel line leaks pulled out the hose that goes into the idle control because the engine died when it was left connected. He said there is probably a blockage somewhere and he just tore off a piece of hose with his hand! - like it was paper! The engine now idles at high speed with the hose disconnected but at least it doesn't shut off!

Tuna, I got a PM from someone here who knows a mechanic/owner in the LA area and I guess I'll hear from him (has has a 412).

Hey, you guys have been great and helpful! I posted a photo of the jewel in the Introductions. It looks great! Now if it would only run like a Jack Rabbit (VW)!

[tuna]

I ventured out into tire land today and found out that 165 80 15 tires are not in great abundance around these parts! Kumho is about it. I'm still getting prices.

Really? Did you ask about 165-15's? They are the same size. Any self-respecting VW shop will have them, and every tire place I've been to has had them.

Tuna, I got a PM from someone here who knows a mechanic/owner in the LA area and I guess I'll hear from him (has has a 412).

Cool, keep us posted on who and how it works out.

Tuna

[raygreenwood]

On the stock rims....you can run 185's no problem. If you need new rims...you can use the basic chrome rims that you see in advertizements (basically a repro porsche 356 rim). They bolt right up, have teh proper offset.,..and if you use the 5.5" wide one....you can use 205/60-15's. This is a majorly good upgrade for handling, smoothness and availabilit of tires. There are no worries or problems bolting these rims right on and they are about $50 each.

There is no idle control on a 411 with D-jet...that has a hose that can be removed. What did your mechanic pull loose? There are absolutely "0" vacuum leaks allowed on D-jet. It can cause major problems. Describe things for us and we can help you fix it.

The front end....is actually not very complex at all. It does however have complications.....mainly in parts wear and availability.

For instance....both control arms will come out with the ball joints intact....with only six bolts each side.
Including the struts coming out complete as units.....there are only about four major sub-assemblies.
For the most part...I don't recommend doing the front end piecemeal unless you can absolutely guarantee that there will be very few miles and very littkle time between sub-assembly rebulds.

The thing to realize about the type 4 front end is that the control arms are very long and exert major leverage on the bushings. That means that restoring one section but not another...can in very short order destroy other parts...or even the new parts.

There were also some design deficiencies that cause relatively poor life on some parts. For example....the center steering link.....of which yours is guaranteed to be bad. It used steel rotating ins crimped into a 6/6 nylon bushing. Back in those days..this was relatively advanced. It took them a whileto realize that this type of nylon absorbed water and shattered into a powder. So....if either idler arm bushing or the centering rings on the radius arms or the control arm bushings are shot......it heavily side loads the center link destroy the fragile bushings.
Vica-versa....a bad centerlink will destroy the idler bushing and the control arm bushings.

The center link you have can be rebuilt with a bit of care.....and about $8 in bronze bushings and shims....and be 100% better than stock.

The first thing to to is preservation. You need to take out the three bolts on each side that clamp the strut to the ball joints. Inspect the ball joints. If they are smooth and tight....clean them...put a grease hole in them...and put new boots on them and you will be set.
At this stage....I would recommend all new bushings. Control arm, center link, idler arm and at least check the centering rings on the radius arms.
All of this would be phase 1.
Phase two is struts and bushinsg. Don't let those go too long because struts in poor condition will ebat up those priceless ball joints.
Tie rod ends are cheap. Replace them all.
This will not actually cost a lot of money.
Get with us and we can help you source parts. Ray

[raygreenwood]

On the stock rims....you can run 185's no problem. If you need new rims...you can use the basic chrome rims that you see in advertizements (basically a repro porsche 356 rim). They bolt right up, have teh proper offset.,..and if you use the 5.5" wide one....you can use 205/60-15's. This is a majorly good upgrade for handling, smoothness and availabilit of tires. There are no worries or problems bolting these rims right on and they are about $50 each.

There is no idle control on a 411 with D-jet...that has a hose that can be removed. What did your mechanic pull loose? There are absolutely "0" vacuum leaks allowed on D-jet. It can cause major problems. Describe things for us and we can help you fix it.

The front end....is actually not very complex at all. It does however have complications.....mainly in parts wear and availability.

For instance....both control arms will come out with the ball joints intact....with only six bolts each side.
Including the struts coming out complete as units.....there are only about four major sub-assemblies.
For the most part...I don't recommend doing the front end piecemeal unless you can absolutely guarantee that there will be very few miles and very littkle time between sub-assembly rebulds.

The thing to realize about the type 4 front end is that the control arms are very long and exert major leverage on the bushings. That means that restoring one section but not another...can in very short order destroy other parts...or even the new parts.

There were also some design deficiencies that cause relatively poor life on some parts. For example....the center steering link.....of which yours is guaranteed to be bad. It used steel rotating ins crimped into a 6/6 nylon bushing. Back in those days..this was relatively advanced. It took them a whileto realize that this type of nylon absorbed water and shattered into a powder. So....if either idler arm bushing or the centering rings on the radius arms or the control arm bushings are shot......it heavily side loads the center link destroy the fragile bushings.
Vica-versa....a bad centerlink will destroy the idler bushing and the control arm bushings.

The center link you have can be rebuilt with a bit of care.....and about $8 in bronze bushings and shims....and be 100% better than stock.

The first thing to to is preservation. You need to take out the three bolts on each side that clamp the strut to the ball joints. Inspect the ball joints. If they are smooth and tight....clean them...put a grease hole in them...and put new boots on them and you will be set.
At this stage....I would recommend all new bushings. Control arm, center link, idler arm and at least check the centering rings on the radius arms.
All of this would be phase 1.
Phase two is struts and bushinsg. Don't let those go too long because struts in poor condition will ebat up those priceless ball joints.
Tie rod ends are cheap. Replace them all.
This will not actually cost a lot of money.
Get with us and we can help you source parts. Ray

[411NUT]

Ray,

I am floored by your knowledge of the 411!

Here is a pic of the engine and the disconnected hose. The end of the hose is yellow and it used to slide over the exposed metal pin (both circled in red). When you connect the hose, the engine dies. Disconnected, it idles on fast idle.

Is this the engine you expected to see?

Pete

[raygreenwood]

Ok...yes that is a 1.7 with D-jet injection. That part is a deceleration idle air controller. Its designed to work with the automatic transmission only. What happens...is when you come to a stop and your foot allows the throttle to snap closed...vacuum gets very high very quick. That chamber will "blip" the throttle a couple of millimeters for a second or so to keep the engine from stalling. What your mechanic did does not fix anything. You will notice that now the spring around the outside of the screw/pin...is propping the throttle open. And...the hose is wide open so you technically have two massive vacuum leaks causing a very very rich miture.

If the pin in thaqt vacuum unit retract when the car is trying to idle...then there is nothing wrong with it.

The idle screw is on the back of the throttle body.
If you cannot get the car to idle with the idle set screw....its quite possible that your fuel pressure is incorret...or the timing is incorrect. What is your timing set at and how was it set. The proper timing is 27 before top dead center at 3500 rpm with the distributor hoses off.....after the valves have been properly and carefully adjusted.

Its quite possible from the sounds of things that your mechanic knows very little about D-jet fuel injection. Ray