Roland Kunz wrote:Hello
Some additionals
The 914/4 and the 411/412 sedan engines blocks are identical. Early 914 had the engine # on a different spot.
@Shad
Back in the early 60's, Porsche developed their wonderful 911. Early on, the plan was to have both a 2+2-seater and a 4-seater variety. In 1964, they began selling their now classic 2+2 sports car. However, the prototypes for the 4-seater never made it... they were far too ugly. Additionally, they retired the 356 in favor of the new 912. But, this never really satisfied them... it wasn't really like having two models, but rather two "levels" of the same model, which isn't always too desirable from a marketing perspective.
The first 911 follow ups where based on the streched 356 pan using the, for the coming type 3´s developed IRS. As Dr. Porsche was a family man and loved to have a full four seater the T695 was also testet as 4 seater. One prototype is still existing. ( BTW Dr. Porsche always made some 4 seater to test
out the marked response )
Porsche only had the capacity to build one car and that one must have been the right choice to survive.
However the 911 was made as 2&2 Sportscar. Compact and light enough as possible but big enough to can be raced in the GT Class
The old 356 engine was on the end from solid development and not as cheap as people think. The 912 therefore was in the priceclass where people could chose a BMW Coupe with 130 HP or a Mercedes, Glas..., for less money you could get a a britisch vibrating object and the italians showed up to with the new Alfas and the competive Fiats. In the staates you could get a base Pony car for the money and the Corvair Sport also had a impact.
At the same time, VW developed their Type 3 line. It included cars designed to push VW into a "luxury" car class. Although it did indeed do well, they still had a taste for something more. Additionally, at that time they developed the Type 3 Karmann Ghia, the flagship sports car of their entire line. Although it did have attractive lines, beauty was in the eye of the beholder. It was deemed incompatible with the palette of the US and was never exported here. It never sold all that well.
The type 3 was developed in several stages mainly by Porsche. VW just needed some time to find a correct looking body, test all the new stuff and make it into production. Some ingenius Porsche thoughts had been left over most had been ripped out due the bean counters ( The IRS cam later as they needed it to fit the new automatic and as they feared Ralph Nader )
The type 3 was intentet to keep the Volkswagen company competive in the middle class as the bug had some shortcomings and the competition ( Ford, Opel ( GM ), Glas, Auto Union ( but with two strokes ) made
some good moves. Not to mention the new NSU/Fiat and BMW 700, Renault CV4, R4 ........
Finally the type 3 was just a blown up beetle and not the bigger step Porsche delivered to there construction site.
They delivered a slight upgraded type 1 engine with full flow oilfilter siting beside the oilcooler and dual port heads good enough for 65HP/1500 cc on normal fuel. The engine and trany where mount on a subframe for faster maintaince and lower noise transistion.
Rearaxle was IRS but they still had problems in producing CV´s in masses so they had to wait. Prototypes had a system like used in the IRS TR4 later. They could have used the Citroen CV type but Citroen asked for to much money ( Maybe to protect there marked or as they hatet the Boche and esp. Porsche ? )
The type 3 was meant to replace the type 1 based cars and therefore they made also convertibles and a Karmann Giha follow up. The open cars got not over the counter for several issues.
The bug was meant to be sold as base entry and to be produced as long it will make money. When the type 3 arrived the bug was some 10+ years on the marked ( Well it startet in 1936 but the bug hit the road not before 1948 ) when most car manufactorers had made one or two generations ahead.
Around 1965 or so, VW and Porsche got together and had an idea. What if they collaborated on some projects? They soon came up with two ideas: the 411 Sedan and the 914 Sports Car. The 411 would be the 4-seater Porsche didn't have and the more "luxury" car VW wanted (the 2-door 411 sedan is actually pretty sporty looking...). The 914 would be the replacement for both the Type 3 Karmann Ghia and the 912. Neither of these cars would use the old tunnel-reinforced pan and seperate body construction of the rest of the VWs. In the beginning, both of these cars would have different powertrain options! The 411-4, 411-6, 914-4, and 914-6 were all in the works - you could get a 6-cyl or a 4-cyl! For the 4-cylinder engine, VW needed more power, and it was very soon decided that the 1600 could go no further. A WHOLE NEW engine was designed. It was the ultimate evolution of the 4-cylinder aircooled engine!
In the begining from the 60´s when GM launched the Corvair with the first flat 6 VW consultet Porsche to have a right answer on hand. Anyhow when the type 3 was finished in the development department they startet with the type 3 follow up to replace that car in future that was the type 4. ( Follow ups allways grow in size, look at Porsches or other VW´s, the actuall Golf is larger then the first Dasher and the actuall Polo is larger then the Golf MKII )
Porsche was asked for assistance and Porsche also would liked to have some joints to be used as joint venture. That was when the VW&Porsche came up. The joint would have been the Type 4 coupe wich should replace the Karmann Giha´s and the Porsche 912.
The type 4 had several variatons and several underdevelopments.
As the type 1 case was on the end and the 356 case too and to expensive it was clear that VW and also Porsche would need a new case and new engine to push the future coming cars. Now also the new type 2 coming needed a tougher engine. Not to forget the whole line of new tranys and axles.
At the same time Porsche was developing the 911 and so many things where testet in VW bodys from VW and used in the 911 later. I think the original idear was to use the 911 front axle in the 411 too.
The type 4 engine startet life as a small displacement engine but Porsche used a OHC design. This engine was meant to be used by VW and the new entry class Porsche ( VW-Porsche ). It was intentet to start as 1000 - 1500 cc engine.
However the VW development didn´t had been to keen about most new Porsche stuff and loved to stay on the solid and conservative and cheaper to produce things.
So the VW Inhouse department always had the job to realize the Porsche designs into the real VW world.
They where asking for a 6 cylinder based on the type 1 instead the expensive OHC and Porsche delivered them ( The design was later finished as WBX6 by Oettinger ). But the wight and cooling problems plus the lenght from the unit plus some problems with the main bearings killed that project and VW just shaved the type 4 OHC into the typical pushrod case. It showed up that the type 4 could outperform the 6 cylinder pushrod in any field ( had more torque and was much lighter at same displacement/powerrate ) but VW needed the type 4 a bit bigger to be into the in europe important 1600-1800 upper middleclass section.
The original OHC design was sold to a italian company and became a very succesfull engine too.
The 911 engine was never meant to fit into the type 4 sedans as VW knew they couldn´t marked or maintain it in the field plus it wouldn´t have worked with a Variant wich was a very good saler.
To fit a 911 engine into the type 4 sedan you have to move the rear bulkhead.
But when Porsche developed there 911 engine they also had several variations ( One with 2 camshafts in the block ) and also where thinking about low profile usable in the new type 4.
However the Racing department drove Porsche to use the best aviable engine possible to win races and it was clear that a VW shareable engine would have been not with the same potential.
As the cost problem showed up they skiped the type 4 used in small displacment for the coming type 3 ( wich was a to replace type 1 and type 3 ) and downsized the type 4 body a bit ( before it had been Corvair size orientatet ). At the same time Nader showed up and handling became more important plus to much power would have called for to much trouble in the wrong hands.
Testdrives with the more powerfull engines showed that topspeed in the Type 4 using the 911 frontaxle was very lightfootet on the frontend and at 110+ mph. A average ( american ? ) driver couldn´t handle or react fast enough to manage a safe top speed travel. VW & porsche developed a active suspension wich lowered the car on higer speeds and could correct sidewinds automaticaly. I think it also used the Bendix ABS as it was under Test at the Porsche 911 anyhow. OK just to show what is possible if the puplic would have asked for.
( I think that was the first "saefty car study" from VW )
The following was then that they packaged the project new and settled down the goals therefore they could remove the Porsche 912 like brake system and Porsche Front axle and also the 5 speed trany from the project enlarged the type 3 follow up in size and used that axle layout to make the final type 4 ( The previous type 4 even had a 5 door Variant version with a flat six like the corvair )
Now as the new Audi 100 was in the blueprints this car was to catch costumers in the upper class and the EA 266 was lauched to replace the bug. The EA 266 was a small compact car wich had a low maintaince inline 4 watercooled under the rear seat.
The Platform should also have be used to run as a low entry Porsche, wich lead as the EA 266 was dumped by Leopard tanks, to the 928
Although there were quite a few 411-6 cars with 901 gearboxes running around the test areas, it was ultimately determined to ax the 6-cylinder project for a few reasons. First, the peaky 2.0L 6-cylinder engine didn't agree well with "regular driving" in a heavy car. Second, it was too expensive! In fact, they also removed the 5-speed 901 gearbox from the car entirely. In it's place, they made a new 4-speed transmission that would swap in place (anybody ever notice how long and low a type 4 manual gearbox nosecone is, just like a 901?).
Beside the testmules only Mr. Arzt from Norderstedt made some 411/6 using Porsche 911 engines.
One 4 door sedan was very popular and testet from Gute Fahrt magazine in the early 70´s and the performance with the 125 HP engine was close to the 914/6 or 911T. The same guy also used 914/6 with 2,4 S or 2,7 RS engines covered under 1303 bodys
And, as the marketing guys got a hold of the mess, they decided that the American public wouldn't like the idea of a VW sports car, so it was marketed exclusively as the Porsche 914 in the US, not the VW-Porsche 914 like it was everywhere else.
The reason was that VW&Porsche divison chose to hand on Audi to the US Porsche dealership to gain there sales in the US and as Porsche and Audi covered a wider field only the S Coupe could pull similar costumers. However Porsche developed the Audi Coupe follow up later known as 924.
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It was the NSU division ( a division of the audi family) that did most of the development. This division I think , was finally purchased by vw in 1968 or 69
The NSU was independent untill the late 60´s and then VW bought them up partially and jointet them with the Audi Division.
<B>The 411/412 vehicles were NSU products. A lot of the engine development was also done by NSU. Porsche was looking for an avenue into higher production mainstream cars, but did not have the production line capacity. Trying to grow their existing production lines, was not really seen as a viable
alternative both financially and design methodology wise...as it would have diluted the spirit and detail of the type of product Porsche already produced. Since they needed the capital growth of a mass produced sale item to survive...they consulted with their kissing cousins...VW, who pretty much already owned excessive capacity in the divisions of Auto Union they had already invested. The production the 411/412 cars and later the 914 cars, also contributed enough production in part, to allow VW to finally outright purchase Audi. Lots of history in the type 4 line.</B>
The type 4 had never to do anything with the NSU. NSU had the Prinz wich was a bug hunter. For the same price you got some 25% more performance. It had a inline 4 aircooled mountet transversaly in the rear. The sportive versions had been sold as TT or TTS and beat the poop out of everything in there clas. A good driven TT could show a 911 the backlights as long it was on a winding road.
NSU was also developing the Wankel engine wich was first used in the Sportprinz convertible body on the road. Later they developed the Ro 80 and the K70. Unfortunatlly the company run out of money and had to ask for financial help. BTW NSU was the first company after Daimler and Benz to produce own designed cars in germany.
Now when the 411 was launched VW integratet the NSU company and NSU had the new K70 wich was a very clever designed car ( And the father from Dasher and Audi 80/4000 ).
VW had then the K70 and the type 4 in the same niche. The first thing was that they developed the K70 to VW standards to have the 411 at a equal level. They stoped the K70 estate and choked the engines ( the 100 HP version came 4 years later when the 411 was pulled of the marked ).
VW also stoped the Audi 60 wich also would have hit into the type4 sales, they moved Audi to the Audi 100 wich was a bit higher class then competeing with the new BMW 2000 or even the new Mercedes /8.
Thats a way to protect the marked. Later they found out that the K70 was better to run against the sportive cars and a K70 costumer would never consider a lame type 411 as option.
It showed up that VW´s big mistake was to duck the K70 as it was the right tool to figth the new Renault 16, Ford Taunus, Opel Rekord as the car was just 10 years ahead in development.
Now on the 924 development just follow that link:
http://www.pcapotomac.org/cgi-bin/ultim ... 1&t=000318
@Ray
<B>Dave, I wasn't sure if it was folded in or owned the rest. The word that makes up the name was also contested from what I remember in some obscure interview somewhere, Audi also meant something in...Italian...or maybe French...and the name was under legal blockage for use by Audi for a while. Partly the reason auto union hung on as a name for so long.
Audi was a wordgame playing with audit and auditorium and laudatio.
Horch was founded by Mr. Horch but later became a AG and the shareholder replaced him by Mr Paul Daimler as head of development. Mr Daimler was on jobsearch as he had ben replaced by Mr. Porsche
Now as Horch is equal to "listen!" but the name was blocked by his old company he chose the latin version. Listening is auditing. Listen is audit and the "listen!" is Audi.
The 914 while "built" by Karmann, was not for the most part, a design product of them. At least that is what I have read. If you look at the lines, parts and layout of some of the systems....they have a lot in common with the 411/412...which are NSU.</B>
Karmann was just a body manufactorer and Karmann built also the BMW Coupes, the AMC Javelin, Porsche 911 also 356, VW Convertibles, Fords. Today Karmann is also one from the largest car body developer.
The built mainly Mercedes CLK and the coming Chrysler Crossblade. Beside that they still produce some VW Golf convertibles.
<B>Though I am not positive about the 914 design origins. The engine and driveline have a lot of NSU/Audi in them. Take a look inside of the transaxles of early Audi 4ooo's. I am still going to figure out one of
these days what parts I can scavenge out of one of those, to use in my 412 gearboxes. They are more than cousins.</B>
Still headscratching what parts they share if you not coun´t nut & bolts.
The 914 was on the road when the Audis had been on the blueprints from people who also where involved into the 914 or knew that car.
The VW automatic tranys where modular built and also used in the Type 4 as in Audis and Passat. However it didn´t made it into the 914.
The tranys always used similar or identical internal hardware over the platforms. And most tranys in german automobiles where engeneered by Porsche ( Who was/is the leading transmission engeneercompany ). That was one key to save money. However the Porsche tranys always had been a bit special using there own syncromeshsystem.
<B>There was an article last year in European car about the re-emergence of some of the older marques in production . For example, Audi is thinking about possibly using the Horch nameplate for an upscale
limited luxury line. Their reasoning was that its name is still widely held as related to an elegant and quality product by the Older/wealthier crowd in Europe. I believe the Mann nameplate was going to be reinstated as well. They were known for most of this century for producing some of the very best industrial diesel engines. I will be truely scared when we start seeing Rumpler, Tatra and Henschel vehicles on the
road. Ray</B>
Now as most manufactoeres try to get a big foot into the luxory marked everyone is looking for big names. Mercedes will bring a new Maybach.
VW has Horch, Bugatti, Lamborghini to place a luxury car abouve the Audi or VW level.
Tatra is a very sad story I think the name for cars is now in british hand ( the last Tatras where assembled in the UK ) and the rest belongs to VW.
Henschel Büssing are part from KHD/MAN yet the names had been moved to Kögel ( wich had Dr. Bott as chaiman at that time ) and Kögel now belongs to VW and Mercedes. VW moved from MAN partnership in the truck biz to Mercedes/Frightliner ( they share the midsize trucks and Mercedes use the VR6 to propel there Vito/Vivano vans ). Also as far I know VW has a big share on Saab/Scania trucks not to forget all that little companys like Cosworth
Now on Rumpler i have no details. The leftovers from Rumpler where moved into a aircraft company ( Rumpler made cars as a sidenote ) and as Rumpler was partially jeewish he had to give up his company.
@NextGen
Short and Sweet. The head of VW had a deal with Porsche to make the 914 in the Porsche factory.
Porsche only assembled the engine and trany in the complete bodys. This was done in Stuttgart and partially in Ludwisburg/Tamm with shoplifters
Porsche hadn´t the capacity to build some 20000/year 914 inhouse nor the stamping tools to craft the hughe sheetmetalls. They even hadn´t the capacity to built all the 911/912 bodys inhose
Correct all the 4 cyl. engines were made by VW except the 2.0 ( I think ).
They all came from the same plants. The Porsche versions had only other shroudings and wirelooms. The 914 2,0 had exclusive P&C and heads but was built in the same line.
All the sixes were Porsche. Keep in mind the Six was a 2.0. Actually the 2.0 was almost as fast as the 6. I believe in 1970 the 914-6 was the fastest Porsche.
When the 914/6 came the 911 moved up to the 2,2 engines. The 914/6 outperformed the 911T with 2,2 125 HP. It later outperformed a VW Golf 16V MK II with 139 HP or a Toyota MR2 MK1 with 136 HP.
I know a guy who even showed a 160 HP VTEC AWS Prelude where the road ends
I had a 2,7 RS in my 914 and not very much could grow biger in the mirrors
Now the euro 100 HP type 4 wasn´t as fast as the 914/6 with 110 HP.
But it had a better usable torqueband and was nearly at the same speed whenever you needed it
Plus with some fiddeling and improvments you could still get a little more power.
And not to forget if you spend the 914/6 money at oetttinger you got the 2,4 L upgrade wich had 115 HP as EFI and 130 HP with Solexes. That 115 HP engine is a puller like a modern 115 HP TD PDI engine.
It outperformed a SVO 5.0 GT Mustang on the 1/4.
<B>It's ads, said out of 12 races that year they only came in 2nd in one. They said we can't win them all.
BTY don't forget the few special made 914-6, with the wide fenders that were completely made by Porsche. It was a 9--- something. You can buy kits to make your own. 914's was how I got into T-4's when felt the power and all the cars had over 150k.</B>
The 914 was to race in the 2,0 GT class while the 911 moved up into the higher classes so they never raced in the same class. But still some 914 outperformed the 2,2 and even 2,4 runing on the same track but in a higher class.
This stoped when the 2,5 and the 2,7 engines where used in the 911.
The 916 was intentet to race in the higher displacement class too but as Ferrari didn´t pushed the Dino to fight Porsches they didn´t need a cheap VW-Porsche to outrace the real Porsches
The Dinos didn´t raced becourse they always blew the engines and handled like poop with the new generation track tires ( weak unibody ) so Ferrari skiped that and left it to Lancia wich lead to the Stratos.
Now that was a 911 beater but in 1976 Porsche hadn´t the 914 on hand anymore and moved up to higher Groups to avoid a direct confrontation.
BTW Porsche family holds much more VW shares then VW holds Porsche shares. I think some 10% from VW is owned by the Piech clan.
Grüsse
Edit. some corrections in layout and interpunction
[This message has been edited by Roland Kunz (edited 06-11-2002).] 
