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I have recently traded my vw cabrio for a 411 variant in perfect condition (kids and all that...)

While putting in a new engine, I saw that when we are shifting gears, the complete gearbox/engine is moving around quite heavily (more than 1")

I guess because of this, finding the 1st gear is quite a struggle.

Can this be fixed by only replacing the top rubbers that attach the gearbox to the body, or will I also have to replace other stuff, or can i solve this issue in another way (using a brace for the gearbox)

Did anybody encouter this also, and how did you fix this?

DO NOT...add any braces of any kind or you will destroy the whole mess.
You may need to do a search for this. I have gone through the whole engine mounting in detail several times but will do so again if necessary.

In short....the engine and drivetrain mounting system of the 441/412 is unlike any other aircooled VW. There are no related parts or concepts at all. This is due to the nature of the transmissiosn themselves.

The four speed is worse than the auto in this respect ...because it has a pinion shaft a little over 3 feet long that runs full length because it is the mainshaft as well....and it has the input main drive shaft that is close to four feet long and passes through the hollow pinion/mainshaft.

Because of this issue...any flexing of the case because of improer suspending will flex the main anddrive shafts causing ugly wear.

The 411/412's had 100% of their weight resting on the two rubber bumpers that are right above teh joint where the engine and transmission cases meet. Because the yare loaded heavily...they can wear out. Their wear is generally accelerated when the rear hanger bar bushings are shot...and/or the front nose cone bumper is shot.

Actually adjusting the driveline position must be doen almost anytime the engine is removed and reinstalled...and especially if bushings have been changed. The hanger bar bushings in the rear....are designed to carry little if any weight. They are simply motion arresters. There is a spec for how much crush they should have when properly loaded when teh driveline is adjusted.
The rear nosecone bushing is teh same. In practice...it should have no actual contact with the sides of the bore it is in. Its purpose is as the limiter to limit how far the tranny can move in any axis.

So the nose cone is the motion limiter, the center bushings are the suspenders and the rear hanger bar bushings are the arresters.

The adjustment points are:
Rear hanger bar ends: slots in body mounts (late 411 and all 412) that allow the entire drivetrain package to slide fore and aft by about 15mm

Vertical bolt and nut at end and slotted holes on horizontal bolts...allow vertical adjustment of the driveline, pivoting about the center hanger bushings. In other words....take up the slack on the verical bolts on the ends of teh rear hanger bar...and at the other end ...the tail cone tios downward....or vice-versa.

Rear hanger adjusting issues:
If the center hanger bar on the transmission is not adjusted properly...as you continue to add or subtract adjustment from the vertical bolts at the ends of the rear hanger bar....things bind up and it starts over compression teh bushings in the center of the rear hanger bar...while still not giving you proper location of the tail cone on the tranny. This is how you know that either the center hanger bar bushings are suspect...or that the center hanger bar is out of adjustment.

Center hanger bar adjustment:
If the engine and transmission are out....you can see this. By looking at the two transmission center hanger bushings you will notice that they are bolted to a flat black metal cross bar...by two vertical 8mm bolts each. If yu loosen those bolts...there are 3-5 shims under each one. These shims are the central setting for the height of the drivetrain package. They need only be adjusted or re-shimmed if you physically swap transmissions, rear beam, swap rear bars if its bent or something.....or if you replace the center hanger bar bushings with new ones.


Again these center shims set the height, the rear hanger bar sets teh "tilt" and allows you to slew the whole package from side to side to make sure its axially aligned...again pivoting around teh bushings at the center hanger bar.

the Two bolts on each bushing to get at the shims are accessable while theengine is in...by getting a 13mmsocket...and a ratchet with about 36" of extensions on it. Lie underneath the car...loosen the vertical bolts and you can tip the shims out with your fingers. Wear goggles so the shims don't drop down and whack you.

The fore and aft rocking motion that results is only slight when bushings are good and this is all adjusted. Its also why the shift rod coupling has that funky slip joint at the rear.
You should replace the rear hanger bar bushings and the centers and the tail cone....then get with us on adjustment and I will walk you through it. Ray

Nice to see you here, Ollie. Didn't I tell you that Ray Greenwood knows the 411/412 intimately? The man knows these cars!

How did you make out with getting your clutch slave cylinder?

Travis

Hi travis...

I got one alright, it's on it's way to Belgium as we speak...

could you tell me where i can fill the hydraulic oil for the slave cylinder (and what type of oil is best used)


Ray,

I think I do not even have the rubber mounts (n° 7 and 10) on the nose cone... is this one attached to the body itself as wel? (together with the mounts between the gearbox and the engine)

Are these parts available somewhere... part no 411 399 101 B (n° 7) and 411 301 401 (n°10)
I can find the mounts to attache the gearbox part no 411 399 151 (n°17)



could you explain in short on what parts I need to pay attention to (using numbers on images) I'm not that familiar with the english 411 vocabulary, and I just want to get it right....

can these rubbers be replaced without getting the engine out or do I need to disassemble everything?


thanks for your efforts

That makes it easy. You will have either 7 or 10 and not both. In fact...I have never seen a version like "7". Its probably very early 411.
Both 7 and 10 are a steel plates that bolts onto the end of the case with nuts and washers (9 and 8 and 11 and 12).

The important part the...the rubber....is not even shown in that diagram. It is not available. But....you can use a front engine mount bushing from say...a mid 80's to early 90's golf or rabbit or Fox. Simply punch the hole all the way through the golf mount and slide it onto the metal horn on plate #10 and it will work.
What works even better is a strip of thin rubber like from a tire inner tube....covered in contact cement and then wrapped tight aroun teh horn on plate # 10. Just make sure the diameter is correct. It is not supposed to fit in teh socket in the suspension member tight. It should have about .040"-.060" all the way around.

the other critical parts are the hanger bushings #17...and teh shims underneath # 22. I have no idea if you can get the bushing #17 . I made mine. those are critical. They must be replaced or be in good shape. If they are just worn and sagging but otherwise servicable.....you must first replace the tail cone bushing and then adjust tthe shims.

Bushing # 17 can be serviced without removing anything other than possibly heater hoses to get at them. One at a time. You will need a jack take the load from the bushings as you remove to bolts.

The tail cone bushing...you must have the plate at least or else you would have already broken the long tail coming out of the transmission. The bushing could very well be shot....but I am betting teh plate is there. You have to get your head right down neat the plate to see it. Ray

Hi Ollie,

The brake master cylinder and the clutch master cylinder share the same resevoir, so you would fill it under the hood.

My brake master cylinder started leaking while I had the vehicle stored one winter due to dried out seals. I lost enough fluid that I had barely and brakes, and had to pump them to safely move the car, but I also had to pump my clutch pedal to get it to function as well.

I used a hand vacuum pump to bleed my clutch circuit as well as my brake circuit. It eliminated the need for a second person to 'pump and hold' the brake and clutch pedals. I guess the benefit out of this is that my clutch and brake circuit got new fluid

Oh, and standard DOT-3 approved brake fluid is all you need.

Travis