My 411 project (tranny OK)

haz · Post by **haz** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:44 pm

Now, if you have any info that comes even close to be relevant for my problem . please submit it. I need urgent tranny attention at the moment:

So, last night I was about to do some last minute touches on my '71 411 before its "EU controll"* and since the battery had been recharged I just wanted to do a quick start to be sure the transmission went into all 5 gears, because I had some problems getting properly into its respective gears the day before yesterday. The car was put on stilts and we quickly found out that gear gear-lever-thingy under the car wasn't connected properly! After connecting that properly again, it went into gears easily! But, that was when the engine was not on. We also did the bleeding of brakes and clutch.

So, yesterday when I tried to start the engine - I had the clutch pedal to the floor (in 1.st gear) - I jumped forwards like a frog as if it was in gear!! So, even though I hade the clutchpedal to the floor - it was as if the clutch was active and the clutchpedal had no function!?!?!

That concludes it, the tranny goes into its gears when engine is not on. When I start it - it is automaticalli ready in 1.st gear even though I have the clutchpedal to the floor. We refered tho the Haynes manual, and I am mistaking that short and small !arm" on top of the tranny to be broken...

Do I need to have the engine out to check for a remedy? Do I need a new clutch? PLease help

*EU controll: "periodic motor vehicle inspection" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:07 am

Haz,
do you feel a normal resistance when pressing the clutch pedal? if not may be the bleeding of the clutch brought air into the system (the liquid supply pipe for the clutch is at rather high level in the fluid reservoir).
If the clutch worked before bleeding it should have something with the bleeding to do, it simply might require moore bleeding of both master and slave cylinder.

/Lars S

haz · Post by **haz** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:13 am

Lars S wrote:Haz,
do you feel a normal resistance when pressing the clutch pedal? if not may be the bleeding of the clutch brought air into the system (the liquid supply pipe for the clutch is at rather high level in the fluid reservoir).
If the clutch worked before bleeding it should have something with the bleeding to do, it simply might require moore bleeding of both master and slave cylinder.

/Lars S

Hi Lars

yes the clutch has a fine resistance both before and after bleeding on top of the gearcase. It should be free of airbubbles since I have bleeded the system twice now, no? You say bleeding of "both master and slave cylinder" - I have used the niple on top of the gear-case. Are you saying I can bleed other places as well, or? This is an area I have got no clue whatosever.

Thanks.

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:25 am

Haz,
yes there should be a bleeder at the master cylinder at the steering column (...if memory serves...) think you start with bleeding that one, then bleed the slave (rear) until there is only fresh liquid without bubbles in the transparent bleeding hose which you connect to the bleeding nipple.
You open the nipple 1/2 turn then press the pedal, then tighten nipple (pedal still pressed), release pedal then open nipple, press pedal -tighten nipple etc etc.
All the time watch for the level in the reservoir never to drop down to clutch supply.

/Lars S

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:19 am

..just checked the exploded wiew..there seems to be no bleeder at the master cylinder, could wery well be so, thanks to its position (just below the reservoir) it can be self bleedeing.

/Lars

haz · Post by **haz** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:49 am

ok, thanks. I couldn't find it in Haynes either. I think the master cylinder/pump behind the pedal is OK, but I think that it's the master cylinder on the transimission that's f@cked... I will have time to look at the 411 next tuesday, and I will have someone inside the car pushing the clutchpedal while I lay under the car to see if the "something"-arm for the clutch actually moves..

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:35 am

There is no arm for the clutch...as you will find. Its a pushrod. You either have a leak at the flexible armored hose bewteen the metal tue and the tranny...or you have a bad slave cylinder

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:55 am

Yes, you will see nothing moving at the slave cylinder (only wery early models had an external arm).
If it worked before bleeding I would go for more bleeding...

/Lars S

wildthings · Post by **wildthings** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:45 am

If you had crap on your clutch disc or if you live in a climate where rust is a serious issue the disc may have adhered to the pressure plate or flywheel. If you determine that the clutch hydraulics are all working okay this may be your problem. Your clutch pedal will feel absolutely normal when this happens.

dawie · Post by **dawie** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:53 am

Happened to my 1800 type2 a few times. After it stood for a very long time, clutch do not disengage. Pedal still feels normal.
To get it loose, i started it in first gear with foot on clutch pedal, and other foot on accelerator. Jumped forward, and after a while the clutch plate came loose.

haz · Post by **haz** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:00 pm

Many new and good tips from you guys, and many could just turn out to be correct. I will most definetly check for this on tuesday!

haz · Post by **haz** » Sat May 23, 2009 4:52 am

a whole month has gone by and I have still not had time to start this job, so I have some followup questions:

How should I proceed?

- Is it easier to check for the problem once the gearbox and engine is out of the carf? I have an engine oilleak anyways so I might as well take the engine out also.

- Also, I heard it's really difficult to get parts for the 411, but should I try and search for new slave cylinder already now before starting taking the gearbox out?

- If I should look for parts for the tranny, what else should I look for except a clutch, slave cylinder and or master cylinder, and what parts do I need to fix the potential problem like raygreenwood explains here:
You either have a leak at the flexible armored hose bewteen the metal tue and the tranny...or you have a bad slave cylinder

Basically I am asking: what should I do? What would you do? Which partsd and where to buy them?

Thanks guys,

haz

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:18 am

Haz,
-The slave cylinder can be replaced from outside.If it worked before bleeding I would go for more bleeding...

-Yes 411 parts are hard to get, engine parts are easier to find than body and trans parts. I would for sure find the reason before I would look for parts

-Both the hose and the slave cylinder can be examined from the outside, I would for sure find the reason before I would look for parts

/Lars S

haz · Post by **haz** » Tue May 26, 2009 3:49 am

Lars S wrote:Haz,
-The slave cylinder can be replaced from outside.If it worked before bleeding I would go for more bleeding...

-Yes 411 parts are hard to get, engine parts are easier to find than body and trans parts. I would for sure find the reason before I would look for parts

-Both the hose and the slave cylinder can be examined from the outside, I would for sure find the reason before I would look for parts

/Lars S

-The slave cylinder can be replaced from outside.If it worked before bleeding I would go for more bleeding...

--- I got it into gear before bleeding but badly. But I have no probs getting the car into gear when egine is off, but when I turn on the engine it's impossible!

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue May 26, 2009 5:40 am

Ok....here is the CORRECT logic path for working on 411/412 clutches.

(1) parts are scarce....so you do not want to waste them
(2) Good parts are even more scarce...so again...do not waste them.
(3) The clucth master and slave system design is not 100% excellent on this car....so its suspect.
(4) If you yourself...did not replace either the clutch master, the clutch slave or the rubber flexible hose leak between the transmission and the and steel line ....they are considered to be shot. Remember...you are working on a 35+ year old car. The clutch master and slave seals have a life of about two years before they start having issues....expecially if teh car is not driven much.

(5) When working on the clutch...it is false economy to only replace one part or another. When you pull the engine (a) Surface both levels of the flywheel (b) replace the pressure plate ...always (c) replace the disc...always (d) replace the needle bearing....always (e) replace the rear main seal, o-ring and felt ring...always (f) replace the transmission shaft seal...always.

(6) It is insanity to replace any clutch parts inside the bell housing without ALWAYS replaceing or rebuilding the clutch slave cylinder. The etxra strain will almost always make it leak...and they were prone to leakage anyway.

(7) it is false economy to replace one end of the hydraulic circuit and not the other...unless a particular cylinder is known to be very very young (i.e....maybe 6 months old at the most).

In other words.....if you put in a new clutch....rebuild the master and slave as well.

Its worthwhile to fabricate a solid steel to replace the clutch hose that is attached to the slave cylinder. So....steel line from the slave to the support bracket and clip at the tail of the transmission....then use....the flexible hose from a Vanagon from the same position. It bolts right up.

The later 44.5mm slave cylinder was defective in design in several ways. It has a short life.

Yes...start shopping for parts now. I guarantee you will need them.
If you plan to drive this car and have it be reliable, replace/rebuild the entire clutch system now....so you know its condition...then just refurbish the hydraulic parts on a two year interval and you will have no problems. Ray