NO oil pressure HELP!!!

JB17Atita · Post by **JB17Atita** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:43 pm

hey fellas I'm bringing up my second query in search for an advice.........

I recently rebuilt my engine for the headache of the pulled studs......

everything went fine BUT it turns out that after that rebuilt I had no oil pressure after 20 min driving.....
I bought a pressure gauge and a tachometer to monitor the behaviour.....

When I first turn the engine on in the morning I have good oil pressure say 40psi even 50 or 60 if I get the revs up high..... but then after 20 30 min driving my gauge drops to zero completely and it doesnt come up no matter how high my revs get (not even at 4000rpm)
My oil is 25w60 because for the tropics we have to use the heaviest oil

Antoher problem I have oil related is that my oil doesnt seem to be arriving on time to the bearings.....
Every new day that I start the engine i hear a horrible rattle, LIKE IT HAS NO OIL RUNNING... then after a few seconds the rattle goes away and the oil pressure gage comes to life...... My idiot light could be off but the rattle would still be there......
(If i listened correctly, the rattle sounds like there's no oil between the bearings and the crankshaft)
I've tried changing the oil plunger (the spring and the piston) and nothing
I even got a stronger spring and the oil pressure when cold reaches up to 80 psi but when hot drops to zero.....

I checked my oil cooler and it's not clogged or anything......
Everything runs fine. My car runs great I have no complaints
but 20 min and no oil pressure.....

I've read any possible post on oil trying to find a possible solution but nothing......

Please any help regarding this issue will be very much appreciated
---------------------
The car
1600sp
Stock 1969 magnesium Single relief case.
home-made 009 on 7.5 btdc points and condensor
30pic carb
oil pump STOCK what I think is 21mm gears
everything stock

bparravicino · Post by **bparravicino** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:14 pm

What about backing the nuts off of the oil cooler to see if you have pressure going to it. Just a suggestion. Also if the wrong seals were installed at the cooler base they can get restricted when the cooler is torqued down and prevent the flow of oil.
Whatever the cause , if it was mine and I knew I had an oil pressure problem and was getting grinding noises like you described, Id tear it down and check it out before catastrophic damage occurs.

Post by **doc** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:07 pm

As rotten as it sounds, you are going to have to do a tear down unless you can find the problem quick. If you run very far (maybe just a few minutes!) with no oil pressure, you'll destroy everything. Not worth it compared to a hard days work taking it apart and finding the real cause.

Hope you can find an easier answer.

doc

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:34 pm

To echo Doc, it's not any warmer where you are than where I live, and I have run 5W-30 in the past with no oil pressure issues on VERY high mileage engines, and seen BETTER oil pressure/lower temps than with thick oil.
This has a lot to do with the std oil cooler plumbing design of an ACVW...

An often overlooked bit of wisdom...

"Lubrication is one half of the oil's purpose; the other half is cooling.... Grade 60 sludge .. may give you a warm fuzzy at the gauge, but unless you're moving enough oil through the bearings to keep them cool, they will go away." dwilliams

(The 5W30 experiment was before they reformulated the oil for reduced zinc-- That would be deadly to the cam these days, at least in the US)

There are also known issues with the oil pumps out of the box, and these need to be addressed before damage is done.
(Assuming it's just the oil pump)

The pressure gauges are also highly suspect, a std mechanical gauge is most reliable for troubleshooting.

To paraphrase Clatter, VDO gauges should best be considered decorative trim.

Bugfuel · Post by **Bugfuel** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:14 pm

Are you sure the bearings are the correct size? I'm thinking maybe the rod or crank bearings are std and the crank has been reground once.

And if Caracas is anything like Maracaibo, it's hotter than Florida which is hotter than Texas

perrib · Post by **perrib** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:19 pm

It is time to take it apart before the death rattle becomes a death bang. Start it up with the fan disconnected just to make sure the cooling fan is not broken. Check the oil pressure relief valve for binding. I use a tap to move the piston to make sure it is fully seated. It should fall out by its own weight. Next checking the oil pump gears to pump housing. I have heard of the oil pump drive shaft spinning in the gear but have never seen one. Did you install the thin gasket on the pump cover.

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Bugfuel wrote:Are you sure the bearings are the correct size? I'm thinking maybe the rod or crank bearings are std and the crank has been reground once.

And if Caracas is anything like Maracaibo, it's hotter than Florida which is hotter than Texas

Not sure where abouts in Florida gets hotter than Texas...
I was born in Titusville and grew up largely in Orlando, moved to Houston area later before escaping.

Dallas is ~always hotter than Orlando in summer, and obscenely about as humid, believe it or not.

Not quite as bad as Houston, which convinced me that Dante was wrong.
Hell is a huge sauna, turned up to 11, where you also poach in the sun.

Bruce2 · Post by **Bruce2** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:05 pm

JB17Atita wrote: My oil is 25w60 because for the tropics we have to use the heaviest oil

Your thinking is wrong. The outside air temp does not determine what viscosity of oil you need, the operating temp of the oil is what you base your decision on. If you don't know what the oil temp is of your oil, you are just guessing. Measure it.

Your engine should be using a 26mm pump, not 21.

The reason you get the rattle when it is cold is because that TAR you are using can't get to the bearings right away. Put thinner oil in it, the startup rattle will go away.

JB17Atita · Post by **JB17Atita** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:20 pm

bparravicino wrote:What about backing the nuts off of the oil cooler to see if you have pressure going to it. Just a suggestion. Also if the wrong seals were installed at the cooler base they can get restricted when the cooler is torqued down and prevent the flow of oil.

I've already done that. I do have the correct seals (8x8) I even checked that before posting here but still nothing. may be backing off the nuts a bit gets me somewhere but gotta check.

Bruce2 wrote:
JB17Atita wrote: My oil is 25w60 because for the tropics we have to use the heaviest oil
Your thinking is wrong. The outside air temp does not determine what viscosity of oil you need, the operating temp of the oil is what you base your decision on. If you don't know what the oil temp is of your oil, you are just guessing. Measure it.

Your engine should be using a 26mm pump, not 21.

The reason you get the rattle when it is cold is because that TAR you are using can't get to the bearings right away. Put thinner oil in it, the startup rattle will go away.

How do I measure that? can you guide there?

Here's another fact about the rattle, I've never had it. Before i even touched the engine for the first time of my life (and it already had somwhere near more than 50.000 miles untouched) i was using what we call here SAE 50 for oil. (monograde) and it was a swell.... I even used 20w50 and it never happened any of this.....

I think it has to be the bearings.... but how the heck?

About the pump, that's the one I have since I bought the beetle from the first owner (1995) and I measure them with a dial caliper and it was 21mm..... that's a big question mark for me there....
As far as my reading has come, it should be 26mm... from factory

Thank you fellas! thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the help cause I am like Alice tumbling down the rabbit hole.....
(waiting for the red pill, Morpheus)

bparravicino · Post by **bparravicino** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:16 pm

doc wrote:As rotten as it sounds, you are going to have to do a tear down unless you can find the problem quick. If you run very far (maybe just a few minutes!) with no oil pressure, you'll destroy everything. Not worth it compared to a hard days work taking it apart and finding the real cause.

Hope you can find an easier answer.

doc

I've been hanging around this forum for quite some time and if it was me , i would take the Doc's advice. (Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one)

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:08 pm

An industrial supply should be able to sell you a long stem digital thermometer you can use as a dipstick. Not perfect, but not bad.

A better solution would be an inexpensive handheld meter, so you could keep in your tool box, and have a few TCs (long stem, under plug loop etc) handy for testing.

JB17Atita · Post by **JB17Atita** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:30 pm

This page stated

http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/oil_tem_pres.htm

"New Rebuild & Low oil pressure --> This can be one of many things. Lifter bores loose, Oil plunger sticking or clogged oil passages, Gasket thickness under oil pump cover to great. (often you will find 2 or more gaskets stuck together do to the way they made) Overheating, Oil passages not cleaned properly which in turn can ruin a new oil pump shortly after start up. Even wrong size main bearings for crank or case. Loose oil pick-up. Wrong oil pump. Rocker arms & push rods not compatible"

How much of this is true?? Is it aplicable to my unfortunate case?

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:57 pm

JB17Atita wrote:This page stated

http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/oil_tem_pres.htm

"New Rebuild & Low oil pressure --> This can be one of many things. Lifter bores loose, Oil plunger sticking or clogged oil passages, Gasket thickness under oil pump cover to great. (often you will find 2 or more gaskets stuck together do to the way they made) Overheating, Oil passages not cleaned properly which in turn can ruin a new oil pump shortly after start up. Even wrong size main bearings for crank or case. Loose oil pick-up. Wrong oil pump. Rocker arms & push rods not compatible"

How much of this is true?? Is it aplicable to my unfortunate case?

Any or all of the above.
Only one way to find out...

If you pump end play really is OK, and the pressure relief plunger is free and the seat is true, it's really time to dive in, as there isn't really anything else externally accessible.

The aftermarket pumps almost always have huge endplay and a loose fit in the case... I'd look REALLY hard at that first.

perrib · Post by **perrib** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:29 am

Ok times up, what was the cuase of the oil pressure problem??

JB17Atita · Post by **JB17Atita** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:17 pm

If only I new man......
Can't seem to find it.....
I havne't been able to crack the case because of money and time shortage (no job and university occupied)
I now that there is now divine being that would tell me in my dreams wich is the exact cause, but if only I could now precisely what it is I would jump right on it.....

I was just giving it a LOTTA thinking and I wonder.... How can a different size of bearings (std for 0.10 for example) would affect on MY oil pressure disastrous drop? Too much gap? please enlighten me on that. Maybe that way I would get sufficient will to open the case and get to that.....

Is it really possible that the driven gear of the oil pump can get stuck, and the driving pin is just turning loose, when it's hot???

can I realy come up with the solution without diving into the case? or that's just a myth that I have created in my distrubed-by-this-trouble head??

Any answer, comment, critic, guidance will be very much appreciated
feel free to convinve me that I'm wrong (or right) I just need reasons.....

What's the (fill in the blank) reason for this? Still i say, help please

P.S: can it be the oil screen noto letting enough oil for the pick-up tube, at the drain plate? Nahhh.... (or can it?)

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