Shift bushings

[bradey bunch]

Hello again. I am just curious about 412 shift bushings. I have found that the linkage adjustment is extremley touchy, and it is impossible to get the linkage adjusted (on my car) so that the car will go into first and second, but not rub on reverse occasionally while trying to shift into second (if that makes sense). I have looked, and autohauz az shows 411/412 bushings available, are they the right ones? Also, does anyone know of a good way to adjust our linkage? The haynes manuals way dosent seem to work to well. I have done some quick searches and this dosent seem overley discussed here probably because of the rarity of these boxes.

Braden

[raygreenwood]

You will not be able to adjust the linkage unless yuou take care of alignment of the entire drive train package and have good bushings. The Haynes manual is good for adjusting the shifter and the reverse idler shift fork gap only....its worthless for everything else. Oddly....the clymer manual is only worthwhile for drive train alignment and heater diagram....and 100% worthless for everything else on this car.

I must have posted detailed information 100 times on this problem....but no one bats an eye.


Here is the scoop:

The 411 or 412 with 004 four speed is suspended by the two upper hanger bushings at the bell housing to engine case, parting line.....100%. There is no load elsewhere. All weight is held by this pair of bushings. The tail cone bushing has "0" load....and the rear hanger bar bushings only have a modest amount of downward compression. The tailcone and rear hanger bars are not designed or allowed to bear weight. They are snubbers whose sole [urpose is to arrest motion.

Underneath the mounts for those upper hanger bushings are 2 to 4 shims each. You can get to them by removing the vertical bolt onb each side of each of the upper tranmission mount bushings. If you are missing shims...or need more of them....they are 100% identical to Saab 900 (eighties) from control arm shims.
These shims set the horizontal axis levelness. The entire drivetrain package pivots around the upper hanger bushings.

Likewise...centralizing the tranny tail cone with its bushing in the socket on the rear suspension crossmember is affected.....in the vertical plane....by using the single double nuttedvertical bolts in the ends of the rear hanger bar. Side to side location of the tailcone bushing in its socket of the rear suspension crossmember is set by loosening the two vertical bolts that screw into captive nuts on each outer body mount at the ends of the rear hanger bar...which allow side to side and some fore and aft sliding of the hanger bar...and therefore the entire drivetrain package.

The engine and transmission must be centralized to that the rear tailcone bushing effectively does not touch the inside of the steel socket in the rear suspension crossmember when the car is at rest. At the same time...preload or crush of the two rear hanger bar rubber bushings must be correct. Along with this....the transmission and engine must be aligned perfectly on the centerline axis of the car as observed by the gap between the tailcone bushing plate and the rear suspension crossmember.

If all of this is done....and its really pretty easy....you just have to know to do it......and the front shift rod bushing is in good shape or new....and the plastic disc that seals the rearward end of the shiftrod tunnel and has the shift rod passing through it is not loose, worn out or missing.....and the rear shiftrod coupler is tight and in good shape.....then you can adjust the shifter by the Haynes manual and it will work very well.


However...if you have had the engine and/or tranny out....have less than perfect bushings....and did not adjust/align the drive train package or were not careful to pay attention to the position of the two vertical bolts at the ends of the hanger bar as well as the four horizontal bolts in slots......you will never get the car to shift right and very quickly will wear out the 1st/2nd synchros.

There is a good bit I have written about aligning the drive train. If you cannot find it I can help you when I get home tommorrow. Also...if you have had the tranny apart....there is an eccentric adjustment for the reverse idler gear that prevents grinding in some cases. Its accesable from the outside...but you must have the plate off the bottom to observe and measure while you adjust. There are a couple of mods you can make to the floating joint at the rear shift coupling....but all else must be perfect before you embark on that.

Its interesting.....the information I just gave is factory. It only appears in one version of the clymer manual along with measurments and diagrams to fabricate the proper gauges to measure tailcone bushing play......but when I explain it here.....not a soul seems to pay attention to it.

This alignment must be done on both manual and automatic.

On the manual the problem is two-fold (a) any load put on the tail cone literally flexes the hugely long mainshaft and causes misalignment and wear of all the gears....plus binding and poor shifting (b) any load or misalignment of the drive train causes an addition or subtraction to proper arc radius of the shift rod at the slding coupler....causing incomplete shifting and/or overshifting and gear clash.

On the automatic....misalignment causes bending of the very long central oil pump drive shaft and quick excessive wear of all of the auto section parts. Thats in the clymer, haynes ...I possibly in the Bentley type 3 manual.
Ray

[david58]

We need to get doc to sticky this info. I suggest we rename this thread How to adjust your shifter by Ray.

[raygreenwood]

Cool! I will not be in the position any time soon to post any pictures. My car is in storage. But I can draw diagrams and post them. Ray

[david58]

Sorry Tuna for the oversite. Can you sticky this.

[bradey bunch]

Thanks Ray, I have read plenty of your other posts about drivetrain alignment, and followed your instructions while I had the engine out (I also replaced all 4 rubber mounts, and the tailcone bushing looks good). I was referring to the shift bushings for the shift rod, gear selector, and such (the one above the spring, and where the ball at the end of the gear selector goes into). I have not been able to find any info as to whether these bushings are available (there are listings online, but all I get is a stock photo so I cant be sure it is correct for the 412) or the same as other cars (I assume they are not, but I have never owned another VW).

Braden

[raygreenwood]

The plastic cup under the shift lever ball is what you are speaking of? That bushing is very similar to some found in bus and I think in some of the mid 80's audi;s. I will look in my books when I get home. It could be made of almost anything that fits though. It really just to have a bottom stop when engaging reverse.
Now the shoft rod bushing that is forward of teh shifter...I have used type 2 and type 1 parts with no problems . They sometines fit the body hole loosely. I have had to use a zip tie on one before. Ray

[bradey bunch]

Well, I took the shift mechanism inside the car completley apart because I was having more problems today... and it appears the bushing for theshift rod (the long thick one that connects the gear selector to the tranny) is missing a bushing at the front, and there is about 3/8" movement to each side and top to bottom. I have limited access to lathes at school, and was thinking of just turning one out of brass and oiling it. Would that work? Am I right in assuming that there should be a bushing there? I will check the manuals tomorrow and look for diagrams and such, and I will take it all apart again to take measurements.

Braden

[wshawn]

Should be a plastic one that fits over the main front to rear rod. It fits between this rod and the front guide/hole/support whatever you want to call it.

I had to replace mine last year as the old one was sat in the bottom of the box like hole that the bottom of the gear stick lives in.

Gearshift Guide Bush Part Number 411 711 165A

from a company called Follet Motors in the UK

http://www.follettmotors.com/welcome.php?lang=1

[Lahti411]

If you are talking about the front bushing (number 1 in the picture), it's still available as it's also used in busses and beetles.


The front bushing was made of some rubber-like material and was too soft originally. The new bushing is made of some harder palstic and tightens the shifter nicely. New bushing is cheap and easy to put in place. Part number is 111 701 259.

[raygreenwood]

If you are talking about the front bushing (number 1 in the picture), it's still available as it's also used in busses and beetles.


The front bushing was made of some rubber-like material and was too soft originally. The new bushing is made of some harder palstic and tightens the shifter nicely. New bushing is cheap and easy to put in place. Part number is 111 701 259.

Very excellent of you to post the diagram. Starting from the front to rear I can tell you a few bits. In the diagram...part #1 is 111 701-259 as Lahti411 describd. It is the same as type 1 and works very well. However...part #2 is not always easy to find. This is where a zip tie or some wire helps. Since the bushing is split along its length, without a tie or wrap in this area the bushing expands farther than it should into the body hole and leaves far too much slop. Without a piece of wire wrap here to keep teh bushing snug on teh shift rod you will eventually pull or push the bushing out of its location in the body.

Part # 15 is nylon. It typically degrades, crack an shatters. It is mainly a grease cup and locating ring for the ball on the bottom of the shift rod. Its not really a high strength part. I think I made one out of a plastic manifold plug from an engine like these http://www.stockcap.com/prod_detail.asp?id=119&cat=13

Part # 19 is very critical. It must be not worn at its outlet hole. Also...it must be firmly attached to the body tunnel...and it has a square locating pin at 12:00 position that must be in place. This is the rear shift rod guide. It will cause very difficult shift problems if it pops out of the body, is cracked or worn out.
#22 and number 21 are difficult parts. The part shown in this diagram is the early part. It used to have a metal ball with a rubber bumper grommett in an annular groove. As noted...it wears badly partly because of the grease deteriorating the rubber. The later ones were nylon ball on metal shaft. All of them have problems. The cup...part #22 can get bent or worn....causing problems.

Bear this in mind.....if part # 19 is worn or loose in the body....this will cause part #22...the ball stud......to drop downward in the cup (part #21).....causing the arc of the shiftrod.....to increase....because it acts like the ball stud (part #22) is longer. It over rotates causing difficult shifting.

Why is all of this crap the way it is...and why can't we use normal shifter couplings like #20 or #18?

Here is why:.....this goes back to our discussion concerning drive traion alignment. The parts #'s 18 and 20....are shifter couplings for very early 411's. I have neever seen one like them in person on this continent. They caused a great many problems....because...they are rigid....and the design of the 004 transmission is such that you must not put tension or strain anywhere on the case other than at the bell housing suspension bushings. Its probable that they did not know this problem in the first year or two.
As I noted....if the rear tail cone bushing is loaded hard against the rear crossmember in any direction....it severely misaligns the entire mainshaft gear stack inside the tranny...causing needle bearing wear and galling of the mainshaft. The same happens but to a lesser degree if you put to much pressure on the rear hanger bar bushings...crushing them heavily. It causes tension at the opposite end.

So...they realized that the transmission must be "suspended" from the central hanger bushings. So they also added a donut at the tailcone end that is used to centralize the tailcone in that hole but impart no strain on it. In short....it floats. There should be no more than about 3-5mm of float in any direction of the tail cone in its socket in teh rear suspension crossmember...based around the centerline of the shiftrod.

Because of this float....they needed a floating coupling....hence....part #21.

The problem as you can see....is that for this shift coupling system to work properly....the attitude and adjustment of the drivetrain package must be perfect. To accomplish that....the bushings for rear hanger bar, tail cone and upper hanger bar must be excellent.

Even when all of this is adjusted perfectly...there will occasionally be rough shifts...such as when you are going over very bumpy pavement at moderate speed and the engine package is moving as far as the tailcone bumper might allow it to in that sliding cup (part #21)...and you have to make a shift at that moment. Because of the movement...the shift arc will either be to small or large and can cause difficult shifting.


There are some excellent mods to this though that can fix all of this. This can also allow for teh part # 19 to be missing or ommitted and not be a problem ...if you do these mods.

(1) I replaced my rear donut bushing with a bushing that allows less freeplay...so there will be less movement of part #22...up and down in part #21. I have done this two ways. They both work equally. (a) Use the rubber sheet material from an old tire inner tube or from rubber roofing blanket...to wrap around the steel part of the tail cone bushing until it is built up to size. I found the required # of wraps...then assembled all of it with contact cement. (b) I cast one out of urethane casting compund.....like this

http://www.markingpendepot.com/browsepr ... iquid.html

The problem with the casting compound though is that you must buy the durometer reducer to keep the hardness of the urethane at about 50-60 duro maximum.

http://www.markingpendepot.com/browsepr ... exadd.html

Cast it to only about 2-3mm smaller than the socket in the trailing crossmember. You want a bumper to align with and absorb shocks from engine movement...but you also want as little movement as possible.

(2) Once you get the engine and drivetrain package aligned properly....you will know it by these things: (a) when you are laying underneath the car, you can grasp the forward end of the transmission and with no more than 10-15 pounds of pressure up, down or sideways...get no more than 3-5mm of movement. In other words....you must know that the tail cone is centralized in its socket in the rear crossmember. If it moves more than 3-5mm in any direction....it usually will not move at all in the direction opposite...meaning that the bushing is up against the wall of the socket in the crossmember and you are not aligned properly (b) the metal plate that bolts to the tail cone and is what the bushing is attached to....should have a gap of about 3-5mm maximum from the edge of the rear crossmember. I use a 1/8" plate as a feeler gauge to see that this gap is maintained. The bushing plate must not be hard against the crossmember or youwill get vibration...and it will make the transmission linkage pushed to far forward....and the shifter adjustment in teh Clymer manual will then not work properly. The same goes foe if the tailcone bushing plate is farther rearward than about 5mm...from the face of the socket hole in the rear crossmember. (c) That bushing plate...when viewed next to the crossmember from below....must also run parallel to the crossmember. If the left or right edge of that bushing plate is closer or farther...it means the engine is slewed sideways at the rear hanger bar. That is adjusted at the two bolts on each side that bolt the outer hanger bar mounts to the body. (d) You can grasp the rear hanger bar between the two rubber mounts...right under the oil pump....and apply about 15-20 lbs of pressure up or down...and see the tail cone move in its socket in the rear suspension corssmember.
When all of this is proper...you will know that the whole drivetrain package is literally suspended from the two bushings at the upper hanger bar....has no tension on the tailcone bushing and only moderate compression on the rear hanger bar bushings. The transmission and engine literally pivot about the upper hanger bar bushings

(3) Now...when all of this adjustment is proper.....drain the transmission oil and remove the access plate. Wipe the excess drips off so you can look inside.
(4) Adjust the shifter as per the Haynes manual. Now...shift...and wath through the access plate that the sliding sleeves only go the distance required...and that everything is correct.

If it is not correct...decide whether the shifter is over-rotating...meaning that part #22 the ball stud...is acting too long...meaning teh shift rod is too low in the cocket coupling.....part #21...or that in reality, part #21 ...the socket....is too high. Or all of this might be vica-versa if the shifter rod appears to be under-rotating.

How to fix this?

Take that ball stud (part # 22) off the shift rod. Measure it from end to end based around the center of the lower bore hole for the shift rod....from the top of the ball and also from dead center on the ball. Then..........saw the damned thing in half .. Remove about 8mm from the long half......then drill a hole in each part....thread for 8mm.... and install a jamb nut. In this way you can adjust the length of that ball stud to give proper shift rod rotation.

Next...once you have this shifting properly...ascertain where the ball is inside of the cup (part #21). mark it on the outside of the cup. I usually do this by finding out exactly hard far down inside the cup of part #21....the flat top of the ball of part #22 is. I do this with a short length of metal rule I cut from a sacrificed ruler.

Then...remove both parts...and take them to the workbench. Find out based upon the depth of that ball in the cup...where dead center on the ball is in the side to side direction. ....drill a hole through part # 21...the cup at this exact point. Then...drill a hole through the ball of part #22 precisely at dead center....and precisely side to side.

Re-install both parts...and insert a clevis pin through the hole in the cup and ball. You now have a properly adjusted system...with proper arc adjustment....and a clevis pin. So the tranny can float 3-5mm up and down and pivot about the clevis pin without misaligning your shifting.

In effect...it will now act like part #20 in the diagram. What you need to be sure to do....is that whenevr the shifter starts to act difficult or tight.....check your bushings and alignment. Ray

[MGVWfan]

Whew! Interesting info Ray. Always wondered about those other two shifter couplings shown in the parts books. Makes me glad I don't have a manual tranny in a way...

Ever get the urge to fab up a replacement cable-operated shifter? Lots of cars nowadays should have suitable cables to donate, I'd think...two cables and some bellcranks, Heim joints, no more pressure on the shift shaft at the trans, and good shifts even when slightly misaligned.

[raygreenwood]

Yes...at one point I had thought about that. It is one way to do it. I find that the difficulty of installing a cable shifter will be almost equal to working the bugs out. Six of one....or a half-dozen of the other. Doing either one would have great benefits in transmission longevity and shifting.

I guess what I am saying...in short.....is that just like the front suspension on these cars, the transmission and linkage is overall... a very good design but has significant defects in execution.

Bear in mind that a cable shifter must have some part that it links to that is stable so that control can be mainatined. This is no different than the bracket that holds the end of the automatic shift cable...or from the bowden tube bracket on a clutch cable system of a bug. If iether of those brackets breaks....you can't shift.

So knowing we need to build what is essentially an intermediate plate for a cable shifter to work.....once you decide to do it...the rest will be pretty simple....with a bit of trial and error for adjustment ....which will be relatively the same as the trial and error needed to properly adjust the linkage that already exists. The benefit of the cable linkage as you note...is that the parts would be easy to find and replace.

But....the necessary alignment of the drive train package would still have to be done either way. The aligment is primarily to keep the tail cone from binding against the rear crossmember and causing flexing of the transmission mainshaft. The overly complex shifter linkage was simply the method they employed to work around the fact that the drivetrain has excessive movement in it.

So...if you improve the upper transmission hanger bushings to take out some of the float and improve the tail cone bushing to make is stiffer, with less slop but still able to absorb shock....you take out enough slop that a "pinned" or clevis'ed shift linkage joint similar to the early linkage...can be installed.

Also....its worth it to realize that if you are going to go ahead and cut the ball stud to make it adjustable...which I highly recommend.....you will realize that its pretty simple to fashion a ball stud of your own. A simple slice of rod stock the diameter of the ball with edges rounded...bolted to the top of a 15mm or larger piece of rod with a threaded joint in the middle to adjust length...and a hole bored to fit on the shift rod...and now you have replaceable and adjustable parts.

Its also worth it to realize...that the reason they have the ball stud...part #22...on later model cars...is that teh shifter itself does not have enough axial arc of rotation by itself. The ball stud increases the arc of rotation.

The cable shifter linkage...or a reworked stock shifter linkage...(once you work out an improved tailcone bushing)...will be equally effective. I think the cable linkage would have less maintenance and would not need the boot or the tunnel guide plate....so if you are missing those items or are installing a four speed into an automatic car and don't have a shift rod and linkage to use.....set up a cable shift.

This is just like the clutch slave system too. In that case...you can build a bracket with adjustable lever and pushrod and use any clutch slave you want. Its not dirt simple, but once you resign yourself to making the bracket and clevis (similar to the set-up on an 091)....you are done. Or....you can find a way to rebuild the stock slave. But rebuilding it to stock specs with a stock kit means you also keep the stock defects....short life, hard to find parts...poor boot design. So keping the stock slave and improving it means having an aligment bushing machined, having teh piston turned to fit that bushing and having a new design and material cup and boot made. All not difficult...but tedious. About the same amount of time and work as making a bracket and clevis. It just depends on which one is easier for you. Ray

[bradey bunch]

Whoa! Lots of great info in these posts! It is good to know that I can use a beetle part. I will order it today and go through checking everything Ray outlined when I get time to use the hoist at work.

Braden

[bradey bunch]

Wow. Another stupid mistake based on my lazy work . I guess I forgot to wire up the set screws for the shifter linkage, so they care very loose. Tightening the screw a bit and wiring them up made the car feel like new . Oops. Plus, while I was under there I checked drivetrain alignment, and there is almost no movement (1/8") when I apply hard pressure up and down/side to side (dont know if that is good or not...) at the tailcone.