Wheel Studs

[JWP]

For you guys racing and running 4 lug drums/rotors. Do you have a preference on a supplier for wheel studs. I know there are some offered by empi etc. But I'd prefer something more race quality yet don't want to pay the Porsche related prices. I have the standard 14x1.5 threads.
Thanks

[sideshow]

Sway-a-way, dorman, and that four letter supplier all seem to offer press fit m14 and ball seat studs. And I have used all three.

[JWP]

I prefer to stick with the screw in type. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and lay out the cash to get what I want.

[Marc]

"Race quality" and screw-in are mutually exclusive IMO. If you have steel wheels you can use stock press-in studs salvaged from `71-up Bus rear drums. For any press-in stud the backside of the drum/rotor should be spot-faced to provide a true flat surface for the head to seat against, a job best done with a mill.

[FJCamper]

Hi JWP,

Be aware that screw-in studs and the relative thinness of common VW 4-lug rotor material can end in loose studs.

We are on the second set of front rotors (long Sway-A-Way screw-in studs) from racing G-forces crumbling the threaded area. This is on a ChumpCar 1973 Super Bug with Porsche pattern wheels, spacers, and big sticky tires. It seems to take about two 14-hr races to wallow-out the threads, due to the leverage of the long studs.

Both my road-course Ghias have their original press-in studs, in both disk and drum configuration, with no problems for 10 years.

FJC

[Dale M.]

I have always had a nightmare experience with after market "screw in studs"... Will not even think about using them... Friends street buggy had about 12 of the 20 screw in stud fail in some way or another... One pulled threads so bad we could not get the nut off.... We had to use "victor" wrench to get wheel off...

For race and street (upgrades) applications , MY preference is press in studs....

Start at section 10 page 160 for metric stuff......

https://www.dormanproducts.com/catalog/ ... rdware.htm

Some links to discussions on the Samba

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=467875
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=345100
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277744

And long write up here....

http://www.mydune-buggy.com/forum/viewt ... f=10&t=163

Dale

[JWP]

"Race quality" and screw-in are mutually exclusive IMO. If you have steel wheels you can use stock press-in studs salvaged from `71-up Bus rear drums. For any press-in stud the backside of the drum/rotor should be spot-faced to provide a true flat surface for the head to seat against, a job best done with a mill.

Spot facing the rotor is my only hold back at this point. I don't have a mill but would like one, and machine shop rates are pretty high, I may just stick with bolts, however my past experiences with screw in studs was nothing like what has been reported here

[sideshow]

I would think that machine shop time is cheap, compared to a loose wheel.
A simple minim needed to install studs; viewtopic.php?f=15&t=89041

[Ol'fogasaurus]

http://www.spenro.com/counterboring-spotface-c-215.html

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spo ... &FORM=IGRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/Nav ... 20spotface

http://getcuttingtools.com/specialtool/ ... tfacer.htm

http://www.vermontindexable.com/tools.html

The animation here is interesting. This is one way to do this.

http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/cutting_too ... nk_04.html

While I don’t think you should try it by hand, I seem to remember people using a good drill press; assuming you are not going to go deep just flatten out the surface you could/should ask about it. There are also pull style spot facing tools for hard to get at (or other reasons) places.

Remember the set-up is important which is a lot of the cost. If you do it yourself make sure that the alignment and perpendicularity are correct to the surface/hole.

Lee

[JWP]

http://www.spenro.com/counterboring-spotface-c-215.html

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spo ... &FORM=IGRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/Nav ... 20spotface

http://getcuttingtools.com/specialtool/ ... tfacer.htm

http://www.vermontindexable.com/tools.html

The animation here is interesting. This is one way to do this.

http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/cutting_too ... nk_04.html

While I don’t think you should try it by hand, I seem to remember people using a good drill press; assuming you are not going to go deep just flatten out the surface you could/should ask about it. There are also pull style spot facing tools for hard to get at (or other reasons) places.

Remember the set-up is important which is a lot of the cost. If you do it yourself make sure that the alignment and perpendicularity are correct to the surface/hole.

Lee

Which I understand all of that, nor more precision than my Craftsman drill press has, I'd just about take my chances not spot facing the rotor which is about the same as having an un true spotfaced surface.

I'm still undecided on this. I'll share my final decision and findings when the time comes. Someone I work with suggested a small tack weld to hold them in place or if they protrude through the back side of the rotor far enough to safety wire them.

And the machine work is about the price of just buying new rotors drilled for press in studs.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

There are several reasons to spot face one of the most important is to ensure that you have a flat surface for the head to sit on… which I am sure you understand already. If the surface it not flat then the head/stop will have a very unequal load on it which can cause it to either fail prematurely or to go out of perpendicularity during or after installation. It also can cause the stud to have the splined/land area to be not fully engaged allowing things to work loose putting more loads on the threads.

I have used threaded studs for many years and they do back out so you have to check them more than once in a while. Most people just put their tire on and are done with it. Even with new cars they tell you to check the lugs to be tight and to torque them in place. The bolts/studs stretch for a while and driving around with a loose lug can waste the stud, its threaded hole or even worse the threads can saw at the rim of the tire.

Not trying to preach just trying to help you on your decision.

Lee

[FJCamper]

Hi JWP,

Almost all of what we have experienced on our cars is applicable just to us. If we were thinking, our posts would be:

"I recommend the xyz part because on any car set up absolutely identical to mine, and driven exactly like I drive it, that is a great part."

The best we can trust to here is luck and generalities.

FJC

[JWP]

Hi JWP,

Almost all of what we have experienced on our cars is applicable just to us. If we were thinking, our posts would be:

"I recommend the xyz part because on any car set up absolutely identical to mine, and driven exactly like I drive it, that is a great part."

The best we can trust to here is luck and generalities.

FJC

Right and I fully understand that. I no way did I mean to imply that anyone was wrong, I also understand how everyone has had these issues arise for them. I know that everyone's situation is different. I've only had two experiences with screw in studs and neither were anything like what has been shared here.

I have had yet another suggestion from someone else of using long fully threaded bolts from the back side with a lock washer. This person has a drag car and had had a season full of successful passes without one ever coming loose.

I think I know what route I'm going to take, just need to pull the trigger.
Thanks again for everyone's input.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

(For what it is worth)

Using bolts has the problem of the thickness of bolt heads, especially with a washer under it, and lock washers being thicker than most washers, hitting the brake hardware (if you have drum brakes). The grade and style of bolt you use is also very important after all, a bolt is not just a bolt as they usually are designed to perform certain duties; for example tension vs. shear or double shear.

There are, if you can find them as they are specialty items that most fastener places aren’t even aware of or if they were then they probably wouldn’t stock them so you would have to buy them in lots/boxes, tapered washers and radiused washers to accomplish this very thing but then could you find something to match the taper you are dealing with, then again, they would set the head farther out from the mounting surface. Installing tapered washers are also a pain as you have to get the orientation correct or you wasted the $$$ and time getting them. Radiused or chamfered washers are for situations where the head of the bolt would riding the radius so it is a fix w/o having to spot face the radius locally and maybe weakening the part.

You will still have to deal with the head's surface area on drum brakes.

By the time you get through working around the spot facing you might be close to or more $$$-wise than just having it done right the first time; I've seen it happen before and they usually ended up having to do it right later on.

Lee

[Dale M.]

Piloted surface reamer (7/8 inch) runs about $25-30 an can be used in a drill press, all you have to do is be sure you have a 90° angle between reamer and brake drum (bolting) surface... And a lug bolt drilled for size of reamer pilot makes great centering tool.... Don't make this operation more complicated than it is so you can justify going another direction...

Once you have done yours, you can do all your friends also and get a little recovery on reamers and drill bits you may have had to buy...

Also this gives you opportunity to up from 12mm lug bolts to 14mm studs and you can also get studs with anti-cross thread ends...

Dale