I'm new the board and have lots of questions about Ghias

[lcvaldetaro]

Hi,

I own a 74 Ghia I purchased in California in 89, restored it (body-wise and interior) in 92, as well as fitted a new engine, supposedly identical to the original. I have 25k miles on that engine. Bodywise the car is perfect, interior is flawless.

I'm brazilian originally and both me and my brother who still lives there liked to race and my brother is a retired automotive engineer and had many leftover parts he used was going to use (but never did) to hop-up his puma. On a recent trip he gave me those parts, and everything I can research point that the parts which were for his 79 puma will fit on my Ghia.

Those parts are:
-Hot cam made by him, but an indentical copy to an Iskenderian 1010 (lifts valves 10mm) , with respective lifters & rockers.
-2 Webber 40 IDF dbl kit complete
-Ring and Pinion (I won't need it it has the same ratio 3.8:1 as my ghia) he had because the Puma was 4.3:1.
-Custom made 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears (3.07:1 , 1.9:1, 1.2:1 and 1:1)
-Cranshaft & etc that can bring my 1.6 to approx 1.9 , but the crankshaft still needs the hard chrome bath.

My Ghia has 5.5 steel wheels, Koni shocks and overall handles pretty good. My intention is for street, not racing, while preserving as much as possible trying to preserve original look. My intentions are to bring it to shows, and occasionally take it to tracks and race a bit, but alone in the track - no, I won't install a roll cage.

I was planning a 3 phased approach for this upgrade

-First relocation of the battery. I have heard some people have relocated underneath the back seat (which does not looks possible to me, looks too shallow), others to the nose. I would like to hear opinions on that with pictures if possible. Seems like the horn would have to be relocated. If anybody has pictures I really appreciate it.

-Purchase an exaust system. I'm looking at an EMPI #3102 and muffler by bugpack 2031-13. This arrangement seems to provide the 3 1/2 feet of exaust my brother says I need, plus it has two exaust pipes that somehow preserves the original look. One of my requiremets is to preserve the heater box.

-Install the new carbs and exaust. Replace the current tires (165/80/15) with 175x60x15 - Dunlop Graspic DS-3, which will lower the car by 2 inches and keep the general look intact.

-Install the 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th custom gears I brought.

As for the above, Any opinions you guys might have experiences, etc. I'm interested.

Next phase is to open the engine. But I have a lot of doubts:

-I'm not sure to do the increase in CC's because I live in Dallas and I'm not sure I can find a mechanic skilled enough to do it properly. Any mistake and cablemo!

-It appears that the valve rockers of VW's in Brazil were 1.1:1; The valves of my ghia are 36 mm; My brother thinks I should increase to 39mm, but my understanding is that VWs in the US had rockers 1.25:1. If that's the case, my cam should lift 12.5 mms instead of 11 mm, and if that's right, it should compensate for the 36 mm valve, right? I would like to avoid all the expense of expanding the valve size.

Last phase is to work on the handling a bit:

-I would probably replace all rubber in the front and rear bushings with urethane replacements.

-Reinforce the body in a similar way that VW did for the convertibles to reduce flex. Has anybody done that?

Luiz

[FJCamper]

Hi Luiz,

First, you can mount your battery under the rear jumpseat same location as in a Bug. It's easiest with a side-terminal battery.

US rocker arms are also 1.1:1. A change to aftermarket 1.25's is common, but they must be used with a cam that allows "hi-lifts."

A high-lift rocker is a compromise, as increasing the lift doesn't increase the duration (how long the valve stays open) and duration/overlap is what makes top end power, and engines that idle rough. For the street only, a set of high-lift rockers adds a little more low end and midrange power.

Your 40mm Webers are excellent street carbs. You should run 28mm venturis. Actually, that's what should be in your carbs now -- take a look.

The exhaust system you've picked is just fine, and the tire wheel combo should really help handling but will give you highly inaccurate speedometer readings.

As far as internal engine work goes, you are probably on the way to 94mm pistons rather than a stroker crank. Less complex. And if you really want bigger valves, which either a stroker or 94mm kit will need to work right, lots of sellers offer "big valve" heads.

Anyway, this is just a start. Ask away. And do a good job on your Ghia. Sounds like it has a good home with you.

I myself am familiar with the Pumas, and we must give homage to the great Fittapaldi! Here at RetroRacing we are involved in building a twin-engine Bug like the legendary Bi-Motor.

FJC

[lcvaldetaro]

FJC,

Thanks for the reply! I just posted a reply on the twin-motor "fitti-fusca" . Incidentally , I was there on the race where it outqualified a lola t70. It has been rebuilt! Look at this picture: http://valdetaro.com/vintage/Fitti-Fusc ... ors.02.jpg . That's "wilsinho" in 2012. I would love to know more about your efforts to rebuild it.

I have made one in slot car: http://valdetaro.com/database/car1032.htm haha!

Something interesting about the gearbox in that car. That gear box was first on a Karman Ghia Porshce (also all in fiberglass) that Anisio Campos built. He built several. One of them got sold to the fittipaldi brothers. Then , they created a prototype named "fitti-porsche" and transplanted the engine and transmission from the Ghia. Eventually they solf the fitti-porsche sans the engine and transmission. I don't know what hapenned to the engine, but the transmission made it into the fitti-fusca.

Incidentally, picture of my ghia here : http://valdetaro.com/vintage/My_Vintage ... 00_277.jpg

[lcvaldetaro]

By the way,

The speedometer reading is already slightly wrong because I use 165/80/15 instead of the original 155/80/15 making it 2.5% slow today.

I think The new speedometer mis-reading will be about 6.5% fast. The original ghia's tires had a diameter of 77.79 inches, with the 175/60/15 the diameter is 73.09.

One thing I did not put in my original message is that I plan to replace the instruments with a speedometer/odometer/tachometer combo (4 1/2 ") that is GPS based; any experience with that ? (I know it probably won't work on tunnels), are these things accurate?

I also plan to replace the clock with a quad gauge including oil pressure, oil temp, voltage, and gas level. No clue how a modern gas level gauge will work on the Ghia. Nevertheless, my current original gaz gauge does not work as of today. It shows full when full, and after 20 miles goes straight to empty.

[Marc]

IIRC, OEM tires for a `74 `Ghia were 165SR15, with an aspect ratio of around 82 (diameter just over 25", circumference of ~79"). 175/60-15 would be about 8% shorter.
Gas gauge problem sounds like a bad sender. `Ghias use a different gauge/sender principle than Beetles. http://www.speedyjim.net/htm/fuel_ga.htm
Mid`72-up transmissions use larger mainshafts than earlier boxes, if the custom gears were intended for an early trans, you may find that it'll be much less complicated to start with one (`Ghias got the 3.88 R&P a couple of years before Beetles did, so if you want to keep that ratio you'd be looking for a `71/early`72 Ghia trans).
1.9L is a bit beyond the capacity of stock heater boxes, at least for an engine that'll be expected to rev beyond ~4000RPM - better plan on 1½" aftermarket boxes. Those are available with flanged outlets, worthwhile IMO, but you need a flanged header (or flanges may be welded to a slip-joint system).
These days it's cheaper to buy heads that already have larger valve seats than to pay the labor to have them enlarged locally. There was a stock Brazilian head that came with 39x32 valves, but they're not a good idea - the exhausts should also be bigger...40x36 has proven to be a good combination. However, for your purposes (the 40IDFs w/28mm chokes) the stock 35.5x32 heads with some intake port work will work nearly as well as 40x36 with no porting would. I'd wait to see what kind of shape your present heads are in before making a final decision.
It's considered bad practice to reuse lifters in a case other than the one they and the cam were originally fitted to, since lifter bore centers are nearly always slightly different. If the lifters have any wear at all on them, you should plan to replace them or have them resurfaced.
What valve springs does your brother recommend with that cam? I would presume that it needs HD singles; be sure to fit steel shims between springs and heads to keep them from chewing up the aluminum. Personally I prefer "low-end" duals over HD singles for all but mild performance cams, especially if there's added valve train weight (CrMo retainers, steel pushrods, swivelfoot adjusters). Regardless, you should plan of a set of "solid" rocker shafts to eliminate the stock wavy-washer/springclip setup - the stock stuff is infamous for coming apart at high RPM.
This engine will be capable of acceleration sufficient to starve the oil pump pickup with a stock sump, so even if you were not going to take it to the track it needs a deep sump. I would also drill and tap the case for a return fitting so you can have a proper full-flow oil filter.

[lcvaldetaro]

Marc and FJC,

Again, thanks for your pointers!

SOme thoughts...

On the tires, I'm surprised that the 74 had originally 165/80(78?)/15, because up to 3 months ago I had the original wheels on it, they were 4 1/2" wide, and I could put that car sideways very easily with my meager 47hp engine.... I played with tire pressures and such, but I could put it sideways nevertheless, due to tire flexing, tires were 2 inches wider than the wheel. It was fun, like racing in slow motion. Then the wheels were getting very dificult to seal due to internal corrosion and I replaced it with steel 5.5". Kept the same tires. WOW! what a difference! Obviously, the tire flex that was occurring, was diminished big time. It also "magically" changed the camber. No so easy to put it sideways anymore, and in fact it tends to understeer a bit. That is what got me thinking in hopping up the engine... In Brazil, real Ghias were manufactured only till 71, but they were 155/80/15 then.

Look at a picture of my car with 4 1/2" wheels, then with the 5 1/2", and the change in camber:

4 1/2 : http://valdetaro.com/vintage/My_Vintage ... hia_03.jpg

5 1/2 with a slight negative camber : http://valdetaro.com/vintage/My_Vintage ... 21_402.jpg

Now to the engine: I failed to mention that together with the cam I got (essentially a copy of an isky 1010 - 10mm 320deg) performance lifters and original isky single springs, shims & etc from the 70's , never used. They can stand 70 kilos. I got rockers that my brother machined, but they are 1.1:1.

I'm wobbling back & forth on the issue of increasing the CC's; seems like every way I look there will be yet another thing I have to think about.

What do you guys think about keeping it 1.6 , not messing with valve size, bore or stroke, with the hot cam and perhaps a 1.25:1 rocker, and an increase in compression to 11:1 (will the valves come too close to the piston ?) ? together with the carbs and exausts it could bring it to 120 hp?

As for the transmission (3.8:1 ring & pinion, and the custom 1st, 2nd 3rd 4th gears), this was the transmission "box #2" that puma sold for racing in Brazil in the 70's. I found that transmission to be better even for mild engines. I had a brazilian 65hp vw-engined little sports car named "terral" with that transmission and it was delicious. It is obviously not for drag racing (tall 1st gear) , but it is good enough for street and delightful for racing.... These gears were intended for a 79 Puma, so probably will fit in the 74 ghia. Any way I could research exactly what size shafts the 74 ghia transmission took to make sure mine will fit?

Finally, I wasn't planning to do anything with the stump, just using full synthetic oils. I even left in Brazil (but can bring on another trip) a dry stump kit my brother had, including pump, tank, radiator, etc, etc. If I don't increase the CC's, do I still need either a dry or deep stump?

You guys are very helpful. Thanks!

[Marc]

Years ago I raced Type Is in a 1650cc-limit class; on 100% methanol they'd make maybe 100 honest HP at 11.25:1 (heavily ported stock-valve heads and cams bigger than yours, with dual 48IDA Webers). IMO 120HP could only be achieved on a lyin' California dyno, but regardless it's impractical for street use, even with expensive racing fuel - and the heads would need to be flycut to the point that the only way to clear the valves would be to notch the pistons (you might get away with something like an Engle W125/1.1:1 rockers without notches at that C.R., but it'd be close). Remember, it's not the maximum lift that determines valve-to-piston clearance, they come the closest when approaching and departing TDC on the exhaust/intake event.
Doesn't matter if you're paying $50 a quart for the oil, if there's none available at the pump pickup because G-forces prevent it from getting there, the engine will self-destruct. Unless you're going to convert to dry-sump, you MUST have a larger sump, or at least an accumulator (AccuSump) for track work. And whatever the displacement, at well before 90HP you have the ability to accelerate hard enough (at least in First gear) to stack the oil to the rear of the stock sump on the street. Dry sump would be more work but well worth it IMO; wet sump without an extended sump would be guaranteed to fail in the service you have in mind.
I don't know what a Terral weighed, but they looked like a Meyers Manx dunebuggy so I'm guessing around 1500lbs (~681 KG). Something that light is likely to give delightful performance with just about any engine/trans combination imagineable, so I wouldn't use it as a baseline for comparison to a porky `74 `Ghia weighing nearly 50% more. Stock gearing on your `Ghia is a .88:1 4th and 3.88:1 R&P for a final ratio of 3.42. A `74 Beetle had a .93 4th (3.60 final) because it had worse aerodynamics. The Terral was pretty much a brick aerodynamically, so although its lighter weight allowed the tall 3.88 R&P it needed a shorter 4th to keep from running out of power at speed. A 3.88 with 1:1 4th is (duh) 3.88 final, about the same as a stock 1300 Beetle with a 4.375:1 R&P. If you decide to stay with small displacement and make power by revving it tighter, a "short" trans is almost mandatory. With a 1.9L, it'll make freeway cruising unnecessarily "busy", but that's the price you pay for better acceleration when you've only got 4 gears to work with.
I have no knowledge of what transmission was used in `79 in Brazil, but I suspect that it may NOT have been the `73-up German version. You'll find out when you get in there, but I think it would be smarter to leave your present transmission intact rather than tear it all apart and find that the Puma gears don't fit (at that point it would cost more to reassemble it than it would be worth) - it won't cost much to pick up a ~`72 `Ghia box, maybe $75-150, and have a trans built and ready to install before you kill the car for who-knows-how-long.
The increase in negative camber with the wider wheels is easily explained, the wider track width has increased the leverage applied to the torsion bars.
I'm not expert on tires, but I don't think there were any 80-series prior to 1976. The earliest radials fitted to European cars were ~90 aspect ratio, more modern "low-profile" tires were more like 82 - but it varied considerably because there was no real standard in those days. `74 `Ghias were the heaviest ever made due to the impact-absorbing bumpers and door side-impact beams; even with 165-series tires they had to be derated from 4- to 2-passenger vehicles to keep the gross vehicle weight from exceeding the tire load rating - no way could they have come with 155s.
Valve springs are rated in the seat pressure present with the valve closed and at some specified lift, not in what they "can stand". All springs go through harmonic points at one or two critical engine RPMs in the normal driving range; even a very stiff spring can lose a great deal of its strength at these harmonic points and therefore must be shimmed up for even more static pressure to raise the minimums. With dual springs, the critical RPM of the inner and outer springs come at different points so that one can cover for the other to some extent, reducing the need for extreme maximum pressure. We need to know at what spring height that 70KG (~155lb) was measured. 150 lbs @1.5" and 225 lbs @225 is typical for HD singles. Typical stock-O.D. duals might be as much as 25% stiffer at the same heights, but when singles are shimmed to achieve that pressure they will have unnecessarily high pressure when closed (increasing wear and wasting power) and will be weaker at their harmonic point(s) - that's why I'll take duals in most cases, even when you don't have to use `em.

[lcvaldetaro]

Marc,

Thanks again for all the pointers!

I will definitely either get a deep sump or install my brother's dry-sump. I'm a bit weary of the dry sump because of my objective to keep the car looking as stock as possible, with the additional radiator that becomes a difficult task.... I'm leaning over the deep sump at this time.

I'm also 95% leaning at staying 1.6L;

Thank you very much on the pointers about the gear box; I have the VW maintenance manual that covers both the 72 and the 74 ghia, and will see if they include the differences in the gearbox, then I will try to compare to the parts I have. Even if they are the same, I'm very inclined to follow your advice to purchase a 72 box and do the work there. I like the practicality of that. BTW, the VW maintenance manual says the 74 ghia is a .93 4th gear, I thought it was .89? Is the manual wrong?

Also on the subject of gears, The main reason for the change is the taller 1st and the shorter 4th. But your comment on needing a shorter trans for the 1.6L got me thinking.... I have the option of changing just the 1st and 2nd (the customs I have are welded to the shaft, either change both or none) and leave 3rd and 4th intact or vice-versa. Assuming I'm getting a used trans (not using the one on my ghia), which trans would you recommend for the 1.6l? 3.88:1 for the R&P? 4.1:1? 4.3:1 ? 4th gear as .88:1, .93:1 or the 1:1 custom that I have?

As for the springs, my brother educated me on the pros and cons of the dbl x single too. He also prefers dbls, but he hand picked those springs saying that for my RPMS the valves won't have a danger to fluctuate. However, now that I'm inclined NOT to do the displacement increase, we are possibly talking 7000+ rpm with this cam... mmmmm I got a little worried now.... DO you know a good dbl spring combination from Engle? The springs I got are iskys, but they are similar to engles' ENGLE-6002 springs ...

Still on the subject of Cam, something you said wasn't clear to me; you said: "(you might get away with something like an Engle W125/1.1:1 rockers without notches at that C.R., but it'd be close)". Is that rocker 1.25:1 or 1.1:1... I think probably 1.25:1 , right? are you saying that if I use 1.25:1 I might have to notch the pistons and at 1.1 I don't, or in either case I might have to notch it to achieve these compression ratios? If that's the case I might have to dial down the compression ratio. My brother says that my cam demands a minimum of 10.5 : 1 compression.... decisions, decisions....



You have been very very helpful. Thanks!

Luiz

PS: The terral I had was a custom-built and weighted in at 610K. No poop! with that short wheelbase it was like driving a go-kart. delightful at the Jacarepagua circuit, which had only one really high-speed turn....(but it was a handful at that turn!). I was planning to drop a much more powerful powerplant on it, but got a job offer in the US, sold it and left Brazil... some 30 years ago. The guy that bought it still owns it and drag-races it. I'm not into drag racing, though.

[Marc]

W125 is an Engle cam grind intended for 1.1:1 rockers. Its ramps are mild enough to allow using 1.25:1. I only brought it up as an example of what might work without piston notches at 11:1 C.R., but it's a moot point since you'd be crazy to run that high of compression on the street.
Note that the late `72 trans is internally similar to the `73-up (the case has two sideplates). The cross-shaft was beefier starting in `72 so that makes the best small-mainshaft trans the early`72, with `71 a close second choice.
3.88x.93 transmissions (standard in `73-up Beetles) were codeletter "AT". 3.88x.88 (`71-`74 `Ghia) were codeletter "AO".
There's another significant difference between the small- and large-mainshaft boxes, the latter have a 3.78:1 First which is considerably stronger than the 3.80:1 - the 3.78 is preferred for big engines and/or hard launches. But you have your own gears so that's not a concern for you.
For a 1600 that's set up to run significantly higher than stock RPM in a car that heavy I think the 1:1 4th would be good, especially with the 3.88 R&P. The taller First is going to make it a little harder to get moving from a standstill, but it shouldn't be annoying unless you have a lot of steep city hills to negotiate (I wouldn't recommend it in San Francisco or Seattle, for example)...you'll probably want a lightened flywheel which exacerbates the issue. Is your Third truly 1.20:1 or is it the stock 1.26:1? That's only a 5% difference, but it's in the "wrong" direction unless there's a particular road course that needs a hair more overlap between 3rd & 4th. Note that starting in `70 VW went to fine-tooth gears on Bugs and `Ghias which, although quieter, aren't as strong.
I usually use Gene Berg GB273A springs. I can't say if their current product is still good, but 20 years ago Bugpack's duals were similar (but cheaper). If you're going to change, better get recommendations from someone running stuff from today's market. But the "solid" rocker shafts are a must, no matter what springs. Again I favor Berg's, but there're less expensive choices.

[lcvaldetaro]

Marc,

My third is actually 1.24:1, almost identical to stock.

Do you know where I can find Gene Berg's parts?

I will definitely use your suggestion and purchase a gearbox and assemble my gears onto it. Even if my gears were made for the 74-model ghia. I like the idea of working separately on it.

However, I need for sure find out which box my gears were made for. Is there a way, a a measurement I can make? Let me just explain what I have: there is a shaft, with one gear for 1st welded to it, and one gear of 2nd also on it. The second gears of 1st and second are loose. The 2 gears for 3rd and 4th are also loose. I can take precise measurements and take detailed photos...

Thanks!

[Marc]

That's the common configuration, even stock boxes have 1st & 2nd integral to the mainshaft. Is the driven 4th gear secured to the pinion shaft by a Woodruff key or by splines? Do you have operating sleeve assemblies (AKA "clutch hub" & "slider") to go with the gears? There are differences in the synchro hub teeth which demand the correct corresponding synchros rings and sliders.
Take your pictures and head over to the Transaxle Forum, you'll find several guys there who are far sharper than I regarding transmissions and their variations (it's been 25+ years since I did much work on `em and my memory's been getting worse).
viewforum.php?f=50

Some good info here, too:
http://www.longenterprises.com/

You can buy Berg parts at their web site: http://www.geneberg.com/

[lcvaldetaro]

Thanks for all your help Marc.

I have started a thread in the transaxle forum with pictures of my gears.

Link viewtopic.php?f=50&t=142632

Thanks!