Help me spend my money

[Bad Bob]

Lets start with the goals.
1. Improve handling on mountain roads. I don't drive to work anymore, so it will be for short trips or maybe a cruise to the beach.
2. Keep it somewhat stock looking. Stock wheels, 165 tires, no lowered front end.

Here's what i'm starting with. The body is inside getting beaten into shape.

IMG_0686.JPG

The body is a 67 beetle that will gain a few pounds through fuel/water injection and turbo stuff. I plan to convert the rear to IRS and here is where I seek advise.
Torsion bars. What size and length?
Spring plates. Stock, aftermarket, adjustable?
Spring plate bushings. Rubber, urethane, or something rigid like a bearing or bronze bushing?

My current car is a 65 sedan on a 69 pan with 19 MM bars front and rear and KYB Gas-a-justs.

[Piledriver]

Welcome to the STF!

The "handle better" and "stock 165 tires" and wheels are hugely conflicted desires.

You can get mexi 5.5s steelies and mount 175-70s or 185-65s on them, and actually have some stick, and still look reasonably stock-ish at stock ride height.

The largest improvement in auto safety/handling/braking etc over time has been precisely where the rubber meets the road.
There are better shocks out there that will not remove your kidneys. (almost anything else, actually)

Looking forwards to seeing this develop!

[Dale M.]

Maybe add (heavy duty) rear anti-sway bar?

Dale

[doc]

Welcome to STF!! We can spend your money for you.

doc

[helowrench]

Are you planning on keeping that 67 swingaxle, or are you willing to make it IRS?

[Marc]

...I plan to convert the rear to IRS and here is where I seek advise...

If you're going to stay at stock ride height there's no compelling need for super-stiff rear torsion bars, you should be OK with stock 22mm...but Type III 23.5mm would be an option if you like a stiffer ride or sometimes travel heavily loaded. IMO Gas-A-Justs are too stiff for street use (especially on the front) - A baja with heavy rear tires can make use of `em, but the lighter GR-2 (Gas Rider) would be my choice. Personally I find nothing wrong with the stock front shocks for most street applications, and unlike aftermarket shocks they incorporate rubber snubbers which not only protect the ball joints (and inner-upper bushings in the beam, which take a big hit anytime the upper balljoint bottoms out), they help to smooth the transition to front understeer at the limit.

Unfortunately Whiteline's not making swaybars for Beetles anymore (I have one on the front of mine and love its adjustability) but a stock-style 19mm bar shouldn't be too much, especially if you go with more rubber up front.

As for a rear swaybar, to some extent that comes down to personal taste - if you like the way your other car handles with one you might miss having it, but I really don't think it should be needed. Perhaps you could consider instead fitting one of the smaller bars that come on 924/944 Porsches - their suspension geometry is similar. You'll need to buy or fabricate the mounts to attach it to the torsion housing. I've seen more than one car fitted with the aftermarket rear bars which mount to the frame horns end up with them cracked/broken at the holes made for the square-U-bolts which they typically use, so avoiding those is a good thing IMO.
You can buy clamp-on brackets (made to fit rear swaybars to Porsches which lacked them from the factory):
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/ima ... 904800.jpg

But it'd be fairly trivial to weld on the stock Porsche brackets while you've got the body off:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/7e2a8ahy.jpg

[helowrench]

Thanks Marc,
I missed it.

[helowrench]

Rubber is really the biggest key to handling.
165 tires really just #1 do not put enough of a contact patch on the ground, are #2 hard to find, and due to that, #3 give you zero choices in performance orientation.
185 is a bit better, but 205s is the way to go. better tires and with many choices.
5.5" rims are easy to find in many styles, including stock steel look, and will take up to a 205.

Take a hard look at the Sachs shocks, or pony up the bucks and go Bilstein. I really will not go with anything else at this point, especially on a bug.

19mm front swaybar, maybe a 14mm rear off a 924/944.
Consider using the 924/944 rear torsion bars, as you have a truly stupid # of sizes to choose from, at really cheap prices.

Kafer bar will be needed with the combination of higher horsepower, and more agressive handling.

FJCamper made a really nice post on handling, would be worthwhile reading.

[Piledriver]

The only reason I suggested 175s or 185s is " looks stock" and fender clearance.
Not as much of an issue with stock ride height, but 195s or 205s would benefit from a somewhat wider wheel than 5.5s.

I'm running 205/60s all around on 914/5.5" Mahle rims, but 6.5-7" rims would be better, if you can find them in the proper offset and bolt pattern. I have never seen an aftermarket "bug" rim with the right offset, they all stick out.
(The ET35 Mahles are not technically "aftermarket", as they were an option and came on 914s, you could have ordered them on a T3 from the dealer)

Full disclosure: I have a squareback: A t3 has more fender clearance than a t1.

There are wider fenders available for T1s, and the factory fenders are reasonably easy to add a couple inches to via a strip of metal

[FJCamper]

Hi Bad Bob,

Disclaimer: More rubber is better --- but I want to defend 165 tires here for a moment. Myself and my friend Dan Sinsley won our 1974-75 slalom championships on Michelin XAS and X 165's, and the attached video is from this millenium -- 165 XAS's again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yowKsYDy4UU

The point is, with sway bars and good shocks to keep what rubber you have on the road, 165's can be driven very hard.

Having said that, Today I'd not run a 165 if a 185 would fit in its place. Etc., etc.

But if for some reason you do go 165's, all is not lost. Just ask the Bimmer pilotos in the video who got outrun by a VW.

FJC

[Piledriver]

True, but IIRC absolutely no one makes GOOD 165-80 tires anymore.

The Avon 175-70 velcro rubber jobs are probably as close as you will get, but how long will those last in DD use?

[Bad Bob]

Wow! Thanks for the advise. It looks like wider tires and softer shocks are in the cards. How wide can you go with a 5.5 in. wheel before clearance is an issue? Also, if I use the stock torsion bars, what should I use for a spring plate and bushings? Or would a spring plate cap with bronze bushings or needle bearings be better?

[Dale M.]

Wow! Thanks for the advise. It looks like wider tires and softer shocks are in the cards. How wide can you go with a 5.5 in. wheel before clearance is an issue? Also, if I use the stock torsion bars, what should I use for a spring plate and bushings? Or would a spring plate cap with bronze bushings or needle bearings be better?

Nothing wrong with stock rubber bushing...If yours are deemed bad just replace them... Bronze bushings or needle bearing just brings a new element of complication into the equation... Not really sold on polyurethane either....

Dale

[Piledriver]

I have had extremely good service out of the black (graphite/moly filled) urethane bushings from Energy Suspension and Prothane.
They also sell the junk red ones for the same price. Avoid. They squeak after awhile, no matter what you do.

The generic brightly colored ones are junk, goes 10x for motor mounts, factory HD rubber all the way for the trans mounts, would not consider urethane even from Energy Suspension for that job.

I don't know on a std, but on a 71 super lowered 2" F&R, 185/60 front and 195/65 rear are reasonable, but it depends a lot on the wheel offset, not all of even the factory wheels are the same, supers, 914s and T3s had a deeper backspacing AFAICT
(Marc or Bruce2 might know the details from memory, I have slept since then).

[helowrench]

Full disclosure: I have a squareback: A t3 has more fender clearance than a t1.l

Negative Pile,
The Ghia shares the offset problems with the T3
with 8spokes on my Ghia, the offset is wrong, and I was limited to 165s
with the Mahles, I am running 205, and could probably fit 215 and retain room for tire deflection.

On the bug, the same 8spokes still have room for 205s. with the stock fenders.

FJ, I would have loved to use 165s on my Ghia, for efficiency's sake, but the choice of rubber came down to hard and unknown, add in the fact that due to minimal movement (slow sell) the tires were already old by the time I get them.

205s are common enough that they are still very recent manuf, and not starting to age by the time I get them, and I can actually find out what softness they are. IIRC the OHTSU FP6000 that I got (rebaged Falken Ziex 512) is in the very low 400 range UTOQ rating but still retains the AA designator for temp and traction