Torque Bar Questions

[Bad Bob]

#1. Does the horizontal bar between the shock towers need to be adjustable? If I fabricate mine to to fit between the shock towers, I don't see a need for adjustment.

#2. Do I need one diagonal bar per side( red line on the picture ), or two ( red and yellow )?

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[Bruce2]

The horizontal bar between the shock towers does not need to be adjustable. As long as you can get it in there. All of the setups you buy are adjustable so they will work on all cars. This horizontal bar is in pure compression, just like a pushrod.

You only need one bar per side in the red location. A bar in the yellow location does nothing. The red bar should be connected to the top of the shock tower, NOT to the horizontal bar between the shock towers. The red bar will be in tension when you are on the throttle. If it was connected to the horizontal bar like many of the badly made bars on the market, it will just bend the horizontal bar, allowing the frame horns to flex down.

If you connect the two diagonal bars at the shock tower, they will pull downward, and inwards. The inwards component of the force will be canceled by the horizontal bar being in compression. This means the two diagonal bars have a downwards component applied to the tops of the shock towers. This tends to twist the torsion housing. Since it is very large in dia, and thick walled, it resists this force easily.

If you want to see a correctly made tri-bar setup, look at what CSP sells. All other bars on the market are made wrong by people who don't understand the basics of mechanics.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

http://www.csp-shop.de/technik/pdf/deeng/20917.pdf This is the CSP bar that Bruce talked about. I thought I posted it already.

One of the things about the diagonal bars that go from the tower to the end of the transaxle mount is they go at an angle down and it which also helps keep any engine sway out of the picture.

I would also look at welding the seams of the Pickle fork as they are just spot welded. In off-roading for instance: it is considered pretty much a must do that should be thought about when attempting to abuse things back there; heck, these bugs are getting pretty old now "and stuff happens".

[Bad Bob]

Good advice. Looking at where the tubes will go, getting around the heater boxes and tubes will be tough. I don't know if the diagonal tubes will fit outside or inside of the heaters at the top.

Lee, I learned about welding the frame horns and a lot of other seams on my baja bug many years ago. The spot welds won't cut it. I wouldn't build a car without doing it.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Just a reminder in case of for those new who didn't know it. I always try to cover the "lookers" just-in-case. Also for those who do a search on Google or any other search engine.

[andy198712]

Does that bolt in the cap setup take ALOT of stress right? just thinking in terms of a DIY job, picking the correct hardness of bolt seems very important, not too brittle but not too weak also...?

[Bruce2]

....... bolt in the cap.....

???

The long bolts that CSP supplies for the top shock mount are M12x120, grade 8.8. Nothing special. Same for the socket head cap screws at the ends of each link, M8s, grade 8.8.

[andy198712]

....... bolt in the cap.....

???

The long bolts that CSP supplies for the top shock mount are M12x120, grade 8.8. Nothing special. Same for the socket head cap screws at the ends of each link, M8s, grade 8.8.

meant to write "top"

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Does that bolt in the cap setup take ALOT of stress right? just thinking in terms of a DIY job, picking the correct hardness of bolt seems very important, not too brittle but not too weak also...?

If the bolts are installed correctly and adjusted correctly then grip on the components should be OK.

As far as the bolt itself goes: if it is a shoulder bolt I would suspect it is OK but there are shoulder bolts that are not designed for shear applications but tenion applications. A head bolt might be a good example.

Remember what the word assume means: To assume can make an ASS out of U and ME. Know what you are using if you are designing your own parts like that.

[raygreenwood]

....... bolt in the cap.....

???

The long bolts that CSP supplies for the top shock mount are M12x120, grade 8.8. Nothing special. Same for the socket head cap screws at the ends of each link, M8s, grade 8.8.

meant to write "top"

Just so you know...and others reading do not get confused.....it is "class" 8.8....not to be confused with "grade 8 SAE". They are not equal.
Class 8.8 is "roughly" equal to grade 5 SAE. I knly use class 8.8 for suspension components in low to medium stress areas like attschkng steering box and idler arm brackets to the chassis.

In areas like ball joint to strut bolts, control arm pivot bolts etc....I use class 10.9 or better. The 10.9 is approximately equal....but not exactly the same....as grade 8 SAE. Ray

[Ol'fogasaurus]

You are correct on that point Ray. Metric and SAE numbers do not match straight across. If I can get this new fangled tablet to work right I will see if I can find the comparsison chart.

[Bruce2]

There's no need for any comparison chart or to even know what relates to an SAE grade because those SAE grades refer to inch junk fasteners that we don't have in our cars.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Are you against knowledge Bruce. No offence but that statement was beneath you; I expect better of you.

[Bruce2]

I've got better things to do than try to learn about some obsolete system (inchs, pounds etc.)

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I've got better things to do than try to learn about some obsolete system (inchs, pounds etc.)

I'm sorry you said that; It is something I would not clown around about. I had more respect for you than you just showed.

Many years ago, when we were looking into going metric, one of the guys I worked with made a similar statement. Shortly there after he disappeared and we never saw him again. We figured he either got let go... or was transfered into management.

We didn't change over to metric as it would have been way too expensive to do. There would have been many, many parts plus tooling would have been affected and the airlines and suppliers would have been even worse off than they were having to make and/or double stock fasteners and parts in both SAE and Metric. Many parts are used on more than one airplane model.