Turbo shopping for 1776 (sorry to make another thread)

[kangaboy]

Hi all, I have been scouring the interwebs for info on what turbo will work with my set up. After reading Scott the Vikings thread, and countless others, I have began to read some compression maps and plot some things out.
I have a 1776, with a non c/w crank that i only want to rev up to 5k, and I would only like to run around 8-10 psi of boost.
I found my pressure ratio be ~1.54 and my cfm ~ 193 (or 13.58 lbs/min) at 5k rpm and 8psi of boost.
I have been reading countless threads about china/ebay turbos, with many wins and losses, and have decided this is the route I will take for this build (properly hooked up oil routing and staying in the manufactured boost range seemed to drastically imporove the turbo lifespan).
With all the shopping, I can't determine what A/R exhaust/compressor would be best for my set up (there doesn't seem to be the selection of ebay turbos as name brand), and with looking at the ebay adds, none of them have compressor maps.
Can anyone tell me if this one will work for my set up? (would like early boost build ~2500rpm, seeing as I wont be reving too much past 5k rpm)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-T3-Int ... jS&vxp=mtr

Air Inlet - 2.75"
Compressed Air Outlet - 2"
Bearing - Wet Floating Bearings
Turbine Housing Flange - Standard T3
Exhaust Outlet - 2.5" v-band
Oil Inlet - 1/8 NPT Oil Inlet
Cooling - Oil Cooled
Compressor - .42 A/R
Turbine - .63 A/R

If you got this far, please offer suggestions on any other turbo recommendations. I really like reading the compressor maps and seeing where I will lay on the graph, but im just having trouble with compressor and exhaust A/R and relation to when boost happens and CFM generated.

[Volky]

kangaboy,

i have a 1776cc turbo engine, too. I put the turbo in May 2015 and runs great. I started with 6 psi and like everyone here says: all you want is BOOST. I currently have it at 12psi but shooting for 15psi. In August I installed an Intercooler at the back, top of alternator.

I run my car up to 5,800 rpms (limited). Since I have a EBC I am troubleshooting it to maintain psi at 12 for now. I'm no guru but I rather do everything myself. For me, the whole fun of this is the DIY and accomplishing the matter.

The turbo is an Ebay turbo I bought locally, 42/48 t03. I had a Garrett 42/54 T25 but the flange was smaller and didn't want to cut the CB Header so I sold it. For now, the cheap one will have to last.

I'll try to post a pic of my setup.

[woodsbuggy1]

What is your application, street or offroad? I am running a 1776 with a TD0412t turbo in my woodsbuggy but would run a much larger turbo on the street. I am a big fan of junkyard turbos, they are generally much higher quality than new ebay turbos.
Good Luck
Kenric

[Clonebug]

Kenric has a great point.
It has to do with application.
Volky also has a great point.........You always want more boost!!!!
Don't kid yourself...if 8-10 lbs. is good then a week or two later you will be asking yourself........hmmmm.....I wonder what 12 lbs. would do......If I built a WI or intercooler can I go to 15 lbs????
And on and on............

If you are only looking for 193 cfm then you need a pretty small turbo.
That CX turbo you are looking at is NOT a small turbo. At 350 hp it would probably put out 500 cfm.
I always go by the compressor inlet diameter and exhaust outlet diameter. For my 1600 turbo... the IHI RHB5 Subaru turbo ($20.00) I used had a 2 inch inlet and outlet and hit 12 lbs at 3800 rpm.Your CX turbo is 2.75 inch compressor inlet and it says it is fast spool.
I think you would probably be disappointed especially if you only rev to 5000. If you revved to 6500 it might be different.

On my 1679cc engine I used a different IHI RHB5 turbo ($25.00) that was 1.75 inch inlet and outlet and it boosted 12 plus lbs. at 3200 rpm.
It was great for local driving on the street but got annoying on long drives on the freeway with 6% grades at 70-75 mph. Anytime I touched the throttle to adjust speed up a couple mph it went to insta-boost and kicked on my water injection which was set at 5 lbs boost. WI was needed at high boost but would blubber the engine at those lower boost settings and try to drown it. Turning off the water without turning down the boost would give detonation. At that time I had a MBC so I had to lower my speed to 65 mph to keep out of the insta-boost. That's not good when you are driving a little dune buggy on a freeway with lots of semis trying to do 75 mph.
Once I cranked the boost to 17 lbs. it was not able to hold that boost at the higher rpms. I think I was pushing the limits of it's efficiency.....

So.....what I am running now is a 2002-2007 Subaru Forester/WRX turbo. It is a MHI TD04L-13T and is good for 390 CFM at 14.7 lbs. boost.
It is supposed to be good for up to 270 hp.
I have it putting out 22 lbs boost at 5200-5400 rpm and at that shift point there is no lag between gears. It holds 22 lbs from 3800 rpm in third all the way to shutdown at 4600 rpm in fourth gear at 109 mph.
22 lbs. boost comes on at 3800 rpm and it starts making boost at 2450 rpm. With your slightly larger engine you could probably make boost at 2200 and have 12 lbs before 3000 rpm.

Don't let it's small size fool you. I feel it is one of the best turbos for a 2.1L or smaller engine and good for 250 to 300 hp.
It's inlet diameter is about 1 5/8ths inches and although it looks small it cranks the boost.

Kenric is running a different variation of the same turbo but it came from a diesel engine I think.

At anything over 10-12 lbs you will need very good ignition control and/or WI/Intercooler.
With my WI my IAT's are at 130 degrees and I still need to keep my advance below 20 degree BTDC.

The best thing about these little Subie turbo's is I only paid around $60.00 for them.
In fact, Saturday I'm off to a swap meet to see if I can find me some more turbo goodness.......

You haven't felt the pull of boost until you have felt it when the 22 lbs. hit........

It makes you almost giddy with joy.........10 lbs. seems like a waste of time after that.

Here is a video I just posted to Youtube of a sort of boring 10 minute drive. There are some hard pulls out of a couple round-a-bouts though.
It will give you an idea of what kind of acceleration you can get out of a fairly stock 1679cc engine.

[kangaboy]

Thanks for the great replies guys. I tried to be as specific as I could in the original post, but I guess I left a few things out. This will be a DD, used for getting back and forth to work (60 mile round trip) and just using it as a regular car (w/boost ). The second turbo that you described Clonebug, sounds great. Most of my work commute is highway, but it often gets congested and turns into stop and go. So I just really want something that will work best over all for those situations. I know I'm going to get tired of only 10lbs of boost, but i have the MK6 GTI to deal with any boost envy I get crusing in the beetle. Im just nervous about reving the 1776 with a non c/w crank anywhere past 5000rpm, and i dont feel like doing a rebuild right now to put one in. This is all new territory for me, so the smaller turbo will do...for now. I still have to deal with tuning my MS, and dealing with all the fuel injection equipment that I'm putting on, so with taking this all on at once, I just wanna get a good base line established, and then we can start cranking the boost up.
Also, I have the CB Turbo header, so I'm looking for a T3 turbo...narrows it down quite a bit. I see that the TD04 has a very interesting flange on it...is there a T3 version of this turbo? Or a flange addapter?

[Clonebug]

In my opinion......and it is only that......the T3 you are referring to is too big for a 4000 rpm rev limit.
Mario used a T3 with I think a .42/.48 and did not have very good results.
9lbs. boost at 4800 rpm on his 1600 DP.
That turbo is quite a bit bigger than the ones I have run.
It is really hard to get a turbo to do everything well. A small one works good at lower rpm and mid range but runs out of poop at high rpm. A big one comes on hard at mid range and pulls like a train from there.

I have a TD04-9B from a Dodge Stealth TT that is a little tiny thing. It would probably give insta-boost for your application but using the CB header makes installing in a bug rather difficult. I'm contemplating a TT install on my buggy if I ever want a real challenge.
It has an inlet of 1.5 inches.
It would give great throttle response at lower rpms but would not have the CFM's to carry a high rpm engine.
Unfortunately the T-3/T-4 is the only turbo that will fit that header without major rework and modifying it would not give a good return on the header investment.
My buggy has great throttle response from 2500 rpm all the way to 5500 if I choose to go that high. It just doesn't feel like it because of the absolute hard pull when it hits the 22 lbs limit. I have 13 lbs boost at about 3200 rpm but that is nothing compared to the high boost pull.
It was really great 2 years ago but like a drug you always need more.........

Like the ad says. The T-3 is good for 350 hp. If so you need a turbo for something in the 150 hp range because at 4000 rpm that is all you will be able to get out of it.
Rpm is what gives you that extra power.......believe me...I have put lots of numbers into all the calculators trying to figure out what I need to do to get to 250 plus hp.
Those Honda's can spin that turbo due to the 6500-7500 rpm's they turn and the 4 valves per cylinder.
Having the turbo about 6 inches from the head doesn't hurt either.

[kangaboy]

So i guess the search continues for a small T3 then. Could i just get a T25 turbo, or whatever weird flange that is on the subi turbos, and cut off the flange and weld a T3 flange on it? I have a T3 flange at home that I can use. There is no turning back on the T3 manifold from CB now. I have it, and I'm gonna use it. Just need to find a small enough turbo.
Thanks for all the info so far. This is helping a lot in the turbo hunt.

[Clonebug]

You would be better off cutting the flange off the header and adding something to fit the turbo of your choice.

That header is also 1 5/8ths inch tubing which is really on the large size for those of us running the smaller than 2.0L engines.

I'm assuming you are putting this in a bug. If you have any welding ability at all you could build your own header.
Great Plains Aircraft has a reasonable kit of bends and flanges that would be excellent for building your own .

http://www.greatplainsas.com/scexhaust.html

I always told myself that is what I was going to do after testing what I had with the elcheapo sedan header and homemade up-pipe.
Turns out it has worked pretty good the way it is and I'm just going to run with it until I get ambitious or can justify the expense and time to build a new one.
I have a few ideas in order to make room for an intercooler but it hasn't been important enough to get me to go for it.....Yet.....

Pete from Ozland put a Subie turbo on his CBP header by making a short adapter. Here is the page with his adapter.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... &start=255

Getting the clocking right and using the stock wastegate would be the tough part but you can always put a heavy spring on it or weld it shut and go with an external EMUSA elcheapo wastegate.

[Dan Dryden]

I use the same turbo as Clone and adapted my CB turbo header to accomodate:









Mine is on a 1776cc Type 1 engine (EFI).
CB 044 Magnum Heads
TCS10 Cam (With 1.1:1 ratio rockers)
7.5:1 static compression

21 psi boost gives me 194bhp at 5455rpm and 222lb/ft torque at 4076rpm.

The blue line along the top of the graph is the torque curve.
The red line is the power curve.
The pink line is boost - which is a little wobbly due to using the standard location of the extarnal wastegate (off of one of the primaries). Full boost by 3500rpm. 10psi at 3000rpm. 4psi at 2600rpm:

[Clonebug]

Nice Dan!!!

I always wondered how that turbo was working out for you and my guess was that it would be full boost before mine.
I have mine cranked and have maxed out my 32# injectors at 22 lbs boost.

We are running about the same boost levels except you have a water to air intercooler. That turbo is capable of more power but you would probably have to spin the rpm's up toward 6000-6500 rpm to get it.
What are your IAT's with the IC setup at full boost??? Mine run about 130*F at 22 lbs with WI.

I would love to see what it would do if I had a C/W crank and could turn it up to 7000 rpm. I'll bet it would be a rocket!!!

I still think the MHI and IHI turbos are underrated and just a little fab work would allow most anyone with an engine 2.0L and less to utilize the power these turbos can support.

[Dan Dryden]

We are running about the same boost levels except you have a water to air intercooler. That turbo is capable of more power but you would probably have to spin the rpm's up toward 6000-6500 rpm to get it.
What are your IAT's with the IC setup at full boost??? Mine run about 130*F at 22 lbs with WI.

I would love to see what it would do if I had a C/W crank and could turn it up to 7000 rpm. I'll bet it would be a rocket!!!

I still think the MHI and IHI turbos are underrated and just a little fab work would allow most anyone with an engine 2.0L and less to utilize the power these turbos can support.

Hey Clone, I don't monitor my IAT's on the road but in the rolling road enclosure, with some carefully placed fans the IAT peaked at 65*C.
Too hot for my liking, but a great opportunity to tune for high IAT's in the map.
I've put this down to a poorly positioned pre-rad and plan to increase the size of the pre-rad and move it up front, behind an air con slotted front valance.

I run a CW crank and would be happy to take the RPM higher, but I think the cam is holding it back from going much further. Once I take it past 5500rpm it starts to feel like it's running out of puff.

I really like the performance of this engine and turbo combo overall but there are still things I would change if I were to build it again.
The most notable change would be the cam. Although a little undersized at 1776cc, I would like to see how a Web 86b or Engle FK8 would perform with the correct 1.4:1 ratio rockers in this little motor. I think it would breath a lot better and give a much larger power band.

I've often wondered how much difference a set of 1.25:1 ratio rockers would make to my current set up, but can't be bothered with the hassle and expense of another rolling road session costing around £250 for making a mod which cost me £125.

[kangaboy]

Bleh...reading your guys responses make this sound bad. Makes me think I spend a few hunderd on a "good" header for nothing...I guess I can save it for a different motor (higher rpm and higher CCs) and just cut up my quiet pack header and make it accomedate a subi turbo.

[Clonebug]

There is nothing wrong with your header....It might not be optimal but it will still work and for all we know work well.
Look at Dan's install.... same header and it can and should work for you.
Just don't get too big a turbo.
If I owned that beautiful header I would have a tough time cutting it too. But one of the fun parts of the DIY turbo is you get to be the mechanic and the engineer.
Put the car on blocks and install the header..... pull the tin and get yourself a turbo and see how much room you have to work with.
It's not going to go real fast build wise........ I spent almost 4 years dreaming, researching and gathering parts before my first try at installing.
That didn't work so I had to set it aside for another year until I came up with different parts and went at it the next winter.
Four years of turbo and it still isn't perfect but it has been a learning experience and it runs quite well.
I just can't stop fiddling with it.

Look at my first turbo exhaust install. Maybe you could do something along those lines too. Take a sedan header and use a 2 inch outlet going into a hard 180 degree turn left and then a sharp turn up right into a turbo nestled between the header and back body of the bug.
I have never had a bug so I don't know how much room there is but that's what engineering is.....
Something like this.



You have no idea how much time I spent out in the garage positioning a turbo in different places in back trying to come up with a solution. It didn't help that I never welded tubing before nor any kind of that work.......It certainly didn't come easy.
Here is my first failed attempt at a turbo install.



My wire hanger holding the turbo in place the opposite way it ended up sitting.





I also had to get a different header.....even though it ended up being free.....



I have hundreds of pics on my photobucket site....
You are welcome to go to the page and look at them. I think everything is public.

[kangaboy]

Anyone using the CB hide-away header with a t25 to t3 adapter?

Its extends the turbo out 2", so I'm assuming it will interfere with the exhaust routing.

This one looks a bit thinner:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/1416908909 ... ps&lpid=82

Guess worst case, I can take the header to a welding shop and have them cut the t3 flange off and replace it with a t25 flange. I feel this will give me way more options at a correct sized turbo for my application.

I have a t3 flange that I was going to weld on another turbo...wonder if I can just put 4 studs in it to accept a t25 flange turbo...yay engineering

[petew]

I've fabbed up one of these to go from the T3 flange to the IHI RHF4 (Subaru legacy twin turbo).



I'd not seen that t3-t25 adaptor... but then a t25 would probably be too big for my 1600 anyway.

P.s. and I'm using the hideaway header too.