Rebuild Questions

[Casting Timmy]

A few questions about rebuilding transaxles.

What is the minimum you replace during a transaxle build, it seems like at minimum replacing the shaft clips would be good.

What is the rejection criteria for synchro cone wear? I'll try to post some pictures later, I recently got 2 IRS beetle boxes with the early narrow fork for 3-4 and really doubt the teeth wear on the one box.

Also the small pinion bearing race was spinning on the end of the pinion shaft, does this mean the pinion shaft is toast? Or can it be saved if I can find a pinion bearing race that presses on. I have read some use Loctite under the bearing race and others cussing them for using it when taking the box apart.

Really appreciate any feedback anyone offers.
Thanks
Tim

[gkeeton]

I guess the minimum parts to be replaced depends on the application. If you're building a "retail" box you want to be assured you will have the least amount of issues with, something like Rancho's rebuild kits would be what I would replace as a minimum. They have a bushed carrier, ALL major bearings, sliders, reverse gear, and diehl syncros. For a budget box, simply replace what's worn. The trans in my daily that gets taken to the track was bought at a swap meet for $5, and I only replaced the seals, a 1st gear syncro, and switched to a 1.41 3rd. 20k+ miles, and 350+ passes at the track with a 1776, I don't have any issues from reusing 40 year old parts.

Are you talking about syncro height on the gear cone, or wear on the slider engaugement teeth? I haven't used any syncro with less than .040 height. The teeth are application based. If the actual drive sides are good, but the peaks where the slider starts into the teeth are worn, it will not pop out under a load, but will not be real smooth shifting. Again the least chance of trouble down the road is to have the entire tooth the best it can be. If this means grinding the sets of worn teeth off to get to the unused sets, so be it.

Is the pinion race that was spinning on a shaft with a retaining nut, and not a c clip? Not sure how it could be spinning on a shaft with the spring between 3rd/4th, and a c clip on a late shaft. Same with this. You could Loctite it, or pean the shaft for a budget build, but it would be better to have the race fit tightly.

I try, and build stuff with the intentions it will be together forever, and last 250k miles. Sometimes someone only wants the absolute bare minimum of worn parts replaced, and they have worked out well also.

[Bruce2]

There is no minimum to what I replace. I replace what's bad.

I have one customer who likes new genuine VW (of Brazil) synchros. Most of my rebuilds get new aftermarket Brazil synchros. If someone's on a tight budget, I'll reuse synchros that measure good. One Cali trans builder told me that his rebuilds get all new synchros. But if it's a gearbox for himself or a buddy, he uses original used VW ones, because he says they work better. When I built my 5 speed, all the synchros were used. It is the best shifting VW trans I've ever driven.

Usually the seals are replaced. Sometimes not. Recently I got a trans with a reverse gear problem caused by a driver that doesn't know how to drive a manual trans. It only has about 10k miles on it. The outside of the case is clean so the seals will remain. I'll change the large O-ring in the side cover.

It's pretty rare to find a good reverse idler in a late gearbox. Almost every trans gets a new one.

I take apart the main shaft ball bearing for inspection. If there's any pitting, it's junk, otherwise I reuse it. Late ones get flipped around so the thrust is now on the other side of the groove. Theoretically, even if you had a pitted one, you could reuse it by flipping it around. The pitting is always on the loaded side. But I don't do that. I suppose if I was rebuilding in Mexico.....

The reason Rancho has that large kit of parts is because most of their cores need all those parts. I'm lucky since most of the cores around here are virgin and in pretty good shape. If I find a gear carrier with .1-.2mm of wear in the bore, I reuse it without rebushing it. It's common for me to find good pinion bearings and good main shaft bearings.

Timmy, use loctite on the inner race. Normally I don't like to use loctite, but in that location I would have no trouble getting that race off.

[Casting Timmy]

Thanks for the great replies guys. It is amazing the boxes I see around here, especially the sand rail guys old boxes I get are just junk! They bash them out pretty good and sometimes I can't believe what I see. The worst is some bus boxes I got that you can tell the shifter was off bad, the forks were half eaten thru from the sliders. Then I think someone goes a little far with the rebuilds as the 2nd gear idler only had teeth between 12 and 4 oclock, maybe I'm being over critical but you think you would want some on the other side.

I really see some third gear clips with heavy spline marks from third and others look fine.

I'll keep that one ring and pinion as a back up or super cheap rebuild someone wants, but let them know what it needs to work.

I'm really thinking about offering some rebuild services here locally, you have any advice for someone starting out?

Thanks
Tim

[gkeeton]

Yeah, Bruce, and I have the luxury of taking apart more transaxles that have never been apart, as apposed to ones that have been rebuilt multiple times.

As far as rebuild services, start small, and go from there. Set a standard labor for a rebuild. Of the 100's of transaxles I have taken apart for repair, or parts, two would have been able to be used as is in good working order. If you set your labor at say $200, a range for a rebuild including parts may be from $350-$500. Simply telling someone your labor rate is $200, they think they will get their trans done for $200, and completely disregard the cost of seals, gaskets, and any replacements for worn parts. If you get serious, you can never have too many cores for parts. If you have to buy parts to use for your repairs, costs will add up quickly, and rebuilds will get expensive for your customers. Core charges are almost a must these days. Last I heard Rancho was in the $150-$250 range for a Type 1 trans and $500-$650 for a Type 2. I've never met someone willing to pay $950 for an outright stock rebuilt 3.88 Type 1, or $1300 for an outright stock Type 2, so you may need to adjust your core prices. If you are rebuilding more existing customer owned cores, that may not be an issue. Be prepared to fix any minor issue with a fresh trans, whether a mistake by you, or not, for free, and eat the labor. Also be prepared to have a few difficult unsatisfied customers that want you to repair the trans you just got done rebuilding for them for free, only to find broken teeth inside due to unreasonable/over realistic abuse. I've only had issues with two trans I've done so far that needed further work. One with an issue with an oddball syncro, and the other with a worn 1st gear that popped out even though it appeared to be in good condition. I've worked on plenty that have had broken parts. Find out EXACTLY what the customer is going to do with the transaxle. If they need a rebuild for their 40hp in their 62 Beetle, or if they want to side step the clutch in their Sandrail with their 2332, overbuild for the application when you can. If the customer can't afford/doesn't want to spend the money on an upgrade, make 100% sure they know the consequences. You can only lead them to the water. You won't please everyone, but hopefully you will have more positive reviews than negative.

[Bruce2]

You're selling yourself way too cheap. I charge $500 for my labour. Then I charge the customer for all the parts to fix his gearbox. That way if you beat the crap out of it, you pay for it.

Last I heard Rancho was in the $150-$250 range for a Type 1 trans and $500-$650 for a Type 2.

Core charge at Rancho is $250 for Type 1. I was at Dave Folts' shop about7 years ago and back then an 091 core was worth $600, if the R&P was good. He checks the R&P before paying out on the core.

I've never met someone willing to pay $950 for an outright stock rebuilt 3.88 Type 1,

Rancho is charging $750 for a stock rebuild. Add $250 for the core, and add $300 for a 3.88. Total is $1300 for a stock rebuild. People are paying it. Good 3.88s are really hard to find in Cali. Many of the stock rebuilds they sell with a 3.88 are getting a new R&P.

[gkeeton]

Bruce, $200 was just an example. I do agree it's too cheap, but it comes down to what the market will bear locally in your area. The Aircooled shop I worked at in Northeastern Ohio for 10 years called Jim's Custom VW's didn't charge $500. $500 is great if can get it, but if you had to do it for a living, you would be out of business real quick in Western Pennsylvania/Eastern Ohio. In the 11 years, or so I've been rebuilding transaxles, about the most someone would pay for any r&p outright stock rebuilt Type 1 trans was about $500, and about $800 for a rebuilt 091. That may have gone up slightly in the three years since I've left the shop. Any mods to a Type 2, like a super diff, that raised the cost a couple hundred bucks, had an outright trans sitting on the shelf for 6 months to a year.

I rembered reading that Rancho's Type 1 core was $250 for a 3.88, but didn't realize that was for all Type 1 transaxles. They have the stock rebuilds listed for $699 on their website, so that's where I figured the $950 from. I also didn't realize the added another $300 from installing new 3.88 r&p's. I'd bet you $10k that a $1250 stock rebuild would sit on the shelf at Jim's shop for 5 years, or more. That region would simply not support that price. Have there been those that have spent more than $1250 for a rebuild with upgrades, sure, but never for a stock rebuild.

Jim's core situation is the exact opposite from Rancho's. He had a devastating fire that destroyed the shop in the late 90's, and his loyal customers graciously helped him rebuild his parts supply. When I left in 2013, he still had hundreds upon hundreds of transaxle cores. He uses them mostly for the couple hundred or so rebuilds he does a year, but doesn't really sell that many outright transaxles. Cores are no means as plentiful as picking up a 4l80e out of a pickup in the local salvage yard, but there are usually 20-40 cores people sell at his Summer swap every year. Gone are the days of getting them for $25, but I've picked them up from $50-$150.

[Bruce2]

You're right, Rancho is charging $700 for a stock rebuild, not $750 like I said.

There must be a lot of guys in your area willing to work for cheap. Otherwise a buyer going to Rancho with no core is paying way over $1k for s stock rebuild when you add in the shipping.
BTW, the $300 charge for a 3.88 isn't the cost to get you a new 3.88, it's what you pay to get any 3.88.

[Casting Timmy]

A lot of great advice. That is why I really don't plan on starting or doing swing axles, the market doesn't bear much with those guys around here. I think the IRS boxes will bear what I want.

[gkeeton]

The biggest issue I've come across is building for the performance level required within the customers budget, and what they "say" they need. That's why the customer needs to be 100% honest what they intend to do with the finished product. There's not a lot you can do about a customer that says they're going to putt around, only to bring the trans back the next week with missing teeth off the pinion/1st gear. Knowing what "will live", and what won't is a fine line of what gets built, and how it is used in its application. All parts have usable applications, but I haven't built anything without a 3.78 1st gear, or a super diff for a long time.