Help Me Decide - Standard or Super

[GeekSpeed]

Hi Everyone.

I am beginning to look for a project car that I can do with the family. The wife has finally granted me the approval. So now I am in the research phase. I am looking at bugs, but I have never owned one before. That in itself is not a big problem, as there is tons of info out there on how to maintain and modify them.

My real question is, standard or super? I am going to go 68 or later so I can get the IRS. That I know. The intended use of this car is kind of dual purpose. I am going to use it for fun cruises and shows with the fam, but I am also going to be doing some autocrossing. So what to do? Which car would be better based on my usage? I am not going to go crazy with the autocross build, so nothing too wild will be done to the car. Which type of bug is best, considering cost, ease of modification, and ultimate performance and driveability? Reading through FJCamper's thread about the racing Ghia is making me think that a standard is the way to go, but I am not sure.

So what say you, experts?

[ps2375]

Supers have a more "modern" front suspension, but it is very dependent on a good and straight body and w/ auto-x'ing in the picture, an upper strut brace would be highly recommended. So, what's available to you in your price range, I think, may make the decision for you. Either way, you'll not be very competitive until you go thru the suspension front to back and spend money on wheels and tires. And then there's the motor.

They are still a blast to drive anywhere and anytime. Especially on an auto-x course.

[GeekSpeed]

I live in SoCal, so there is a large number of both Supers and Standards to choose from.

The club I autox with is not the SCCA. It is more of a club based around fun and run-what-ya-brung kind of stuff. I am thinking I will eventually do a Type 4 conversion or at least do a 2000+ Type 1 motor.

I had read the struts on the Super might have some design flaws. Is that correct?

Thanks for your help.

[Jadewombat]

Supers handle better, not leaps and bounds better than a well set up standard (like FJs ghia) still better though:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=147330
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=148453
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=101402
http://germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7848

[Piledriver]

Supers are also notably heavier than early cars.

ANY of them can be made to handle as on rails, be more concerned about accident damage/rust/general condition.
The early supers can be set up with the late suspension//944 setup.

Go for no rust and no damage over all else.
Stuff you don't have to fix leaves more time/$$ for upgrades.

[Jadewombat]

Supers are also notably heavier than early cars.

Good point, it's about 100-150lb. difference depending upon which year standard vs. super. Both cars start at 1800-2000lb. stock without driver so it's very easy to get the weight down sub-2000. My '73 1303 was just below 1500lb. when everything was done and I ran in E prepared class.

[GeekSpeed]

Great, thanks.

I think I will go with the Super. I am more familiar with strut-type suspensions anyway, so the learning curve will be less. I was going to do the suspension, bushings, and disk brake conversion anyway, so that is not really an issue.

Does anyone know if it is easy to convert a pre-75 super to rack and pinion?

[Marc]

...Does anyone know if it is easy to convert a pre-75 super to rack and pinion?

See the post from "The Pirate" about halfway down this page: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... ?p=2139768

[FJCamper]

Gentlemen,

The Super Bug's McPherson strut front suspension was a compromise designed to get some trunk space in a Bug. It was not designed to handle, nor is it a copy of an early 911 front end.

VW did not foresee the front tub stress warpage that would occur at the strut top-to-body connection, they did not foresee that the front end geometry they chose would give us the scary "Super Beetle shimmy" so violent it jerked steering wheels out of driver's hands, and they did not compensate for coil spring binding nearing full compression.

Having each front wheel located by a single lateral arm supported only with the sway bar itself acting as the sole fore and aft support was brilliant cost savings and the official factory rejection of predictable front handling.

Now, all this can be overcome. Tubs can be strengthened with cross braces, lower coil spring perches were later fixed by the factory with an offset design, and a diagonal locating arm can be fabricated that acts as a compression strut that relives the sway bar from geometry duty and lets it do its job better.

We race both types of front suspensions, and a good Super Bug (set up right) can outhandle a good beam axle, but at considerably more cost. The Super Bug will ultimately keep more front tire flat on the pavement than the beam axle.

FJC

[H2OSB]

I can only recommend Super Beetles. I have 3

johnL (aka H2OSB)
www.superbeetlesonly.com

[Marc]

Having raced both types in circle-track, I'd vote for the Standard. Much more robust, and the difference in ultimate cornering force when each is set up properly is negligible IMO. If you aren't going to be restricted by any class rules that make it illegal to add control links to the Mac strut, it would have a slight advantage - but in stock form, with a long single control arm dangling out in space, I'll pass, thank you.
Consider the Fiat 128 - the basic econobox model had a single lateral link similar to that of the Super (to lower production cost) - but for the "Sport Coupe" variation they switched to a proper lower control arm arrangement.
As Frank pointed out, the Mac strut arrangement Volkswagen chose was NOT in any way a high-performance setup, it was adopted to gain trunk space and a slightly tighter turning circle to make the spec-sheets compare more favorably to the (Japanese) showroom competition in its day. Didn't hurt that it cost less to produce yet they charged more for it, either Frank MacPherson came up with this design ~70 years ago expressly to create a cheap-as-hell-to-produce suspension (essentially just a slight improvement on the old Morgan sliding-pillar setup that was akin to what you still find on cheap go-karts), originally it was never expected to be a high-performance arrangement.
The Super arrangement is ridiculously frail compared to the Standard. The only thing controlling the wheelbase is the swaybar and its bushings, and the Super steering box breaks like a twig under wheel-to-wheel "chariot racing" conditions...on the street, that's analogous to tagging a curb if you misjudge the turn. On paper, the Super's steering geometry is superior to the "compromise" arrangement of the long/short tierod setup of the Standard, but in practice there are huge liabilities involved with having all of the vital steering components attached to the body sheetmetal rather than the chassis...not to mention the slop caused by all of the rubber bushings involved - although those can be upgraded to stiffer materials. The `75-up R&P setup is superior...at least until it takes a shot that bends the rack (changing one's no picnic BTW).
High-center over a manhole cover and smear the inner front control arm pivot points and you've totalled the chassis.
IMO the Super is just fine at the eight- or maybe even nine-tenths level, but if you intend to push it to the limit the Standard won't fail as readily.