Carbon Sealed Turbo Help!

[fall-apart-dave]

Hello gents

Right, before I get to the problem, no I don't want to go EFI. No, I don't want to forget it and build a stroker engine. No, I don't want to switch to blow-through carb. I absolutely appreciate the reasons why folk would suggest the above, but I want to solve the problem in front of me keeping it "as is", and not spend a fortune re-working things. Honestly, I really appreciate the effort folk put in to offering advice, I really do, so please don't take the above as me being an arse. I just want to keep this project faithful to what it is... A stupid looking, undriveable, batshit mental deathtrap done the OLD way, using OLD tech, the way hotrodders used to do it. I'm keeping a piece of history alive here, really. I mean, yes there's a good reason we don't do things that way any more (several, actually, as the "scrap bin" in my shed will tell you), but I'm enjoying doing things differently.

So... Here's the issue.

I have a junkyard drawthrough turbo setup on my stupidly low, undriveable, cambered as hell ridiculous Volksrod.
It's sucking through a Dellorto DHLA 40 via a (very dead) Garrett T3 from a Saab 900. The clever folk at the back will already see a problem, the TB0358 from a Saab 900 is dynamic sealed, and therefore no good for drawthrough. Correct! But it's came with the engine when I bought it...
(For those wondering if you can get away with a dynamic seal turbo in a drawthrough configuration: No, you can't. Not long term. Sooty dirty exhaust, oily intake, fouled plugs, weird fueling symptoms telling you that you are lean, yet the dirty plugs telling you that you're rich, detonations... Just don't do it.)

What has really killed things though is, well, my turbine housing is now essentially in more pieces than it left the factory in... There's a honking crack that goes right over the wastegate hole, with a good chunk missing there too. So, no boost for Dave


So, I have a list of turbos that are carbon sealed from factory, but can I balls find one!!

TB0319 Renault
TB0327 Pug
TB0390 Merc
TC0304 Citreon
TA0305 Renault
TB0307 Ford
TB0310 Renault
TB0308 buik
tb0309 buik
tb0317 buick
TB0346 pug
tb0360 merc
TB0369 Merc
TB0344 Ford
TB0371 / 78 / 75 Crysler / Dodge
TB0355 Dodge
TB0306 Nissan

Do you know of any others?

Now as it happens, while writing this, and email just popped up from a company that have been quite helpful as of today with a price for a backplate, thrust parts, carbon seal etc to convert my Garrett TB0358. I may have even found a compatible turbine housing. But, this thread may well help someone else, or me in the future when I kaboom things again!

So, can anyone offer any advice? Know of anything for sale? They are really thin on the ground, and trawling Ebay has revealed that so far everyone selling turbos for hte above vehicles are sticking dynamic seals in them because "They are more reliable blablabla" - despite me telling them that often a carbon seal is used for a good reason in old turbos

Thanks in advance, chaps!

[rubenski]

Better switch to EFI

[fall-apart-dave]

[Buggsy]

New topics posted on The Forced Induction Forum on average per month:
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[fall-apart-dave]

Hmm. Oh well. I thought this was "the place" for this sort of tech discussion!

[Piledriver]

It is...
...but most folks eventually gave up on carbs, and went to blow through EFI (with great datalogging and a wideband) and are actually driving their cars these days.

Note some of the old threads are >100 pages long, and still going.


OK, I kid about EFI as you don't want to go there yet, but please consider the following...

I suggest something like a microsquirt might be viable running programmable ignition only and using it as a nice datalogger/rev limiter and EBC... It can even shut things down if the AFR goes out for lunch, at least to a point
(MS3 has much more comprehensive AFR/boost/EGT etc. safety features, but costs ~2X as much, silly for spark/datalogging only use, even though it can log to a really fast SD card at ~400 Hz).

if you are intent on remaining "old school" look it can even control a distributor if needed, although that has its gotchas (you can ask for more/less timing than the distributor can physically deliver).
Its likely well worth the effort and expense just as a datalogger, and can be set up with a nice digital dash even on your phone wirelessly if you so desire.(limits you to around 15 Hz rate, but it beats zero hz)
Being able to log what your engine is up to is a lifesaver..

Most of the Garretts had carbon seals, are you certain the Saab unit didn't? (maybe just worn out?)

The Garrett T3 for the XR4Ti/Mustbang/Supercoupe did to my recollection, they are .60 intake/.48 ex, the automatics had a .63 ex AR housing. You only want the Garrett versions for those apps, the IHI(?) variants are ~universally loathed, although you can get them cheap, might work OK for you if they have carbon seals (no idea)

IHI actually builds great turbos... just not in the 80s. Many of those are not rebuildable, no kits.
Check for kit availability before hitting "buy it now".

[fall-apart-dave]

Hello buddy

Ok, so a lot of what you wrote there is great, but... I'm in the UK, and what I have found is that just about every turbo I have looked at which *should* have a carbon seal, doesn't. It's been converted to dynamic seal when it has been rebuilt because it's a few £ cheaper... But not all garret T3 are carbon sealed over here, many of them aren't. The Saab 900 TB0358 is definitely dynamic seal from factory. It has been an absolute minefield! And most folk have no idea what seal are in their turbo... I very almost bought a turbo from a Peugeout 505 that was freshly reconditioned and never used since, but when I asked the dude to confirm it had been rebuilt with the correct carbon seals he told me that "Carbon seals are specialist, they aren't in road cars, it's a racing thing" I told him to keep his turbo LOL

For EIF... As it happens I actually have a wideband sensor and digital readout that I have not yet fitted (the open source job from 14point7), and while I am using a 009 locked out to 28* (though will dial that back to 24* or even less if I add significant boost), I could potentially look at EFI further along the way if I buy parts slow-time, but for now, as I said, the whole point of the project is doing it the old way. Lots of reasons for it, first of which is that I have a huge soft spot for very old technology (hell, I would have my Volksrod steam powered if I could, and I'm NOT kidding!). yes it's inefficient, yes it's outdated, but for me there's some importance in keeping old skills and old knowledge alive. I used to be in the Royal Air Force, and as luck would have it ended up as a legacy engineer working on the really old ground equipment (we're talking valve based transmitters from the 1940's!), which really appealed to me, since that wasn't just "box changing" but real hands-on, get your fingers burnt, really LEARN how it works to component level. I was one of about 4 or 5 people who knew more than just what box to change when something broke on these things, and I loved it! Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent... The OTHER reason I want to keep it old tech is that there's almost nothing that can go wrong that cannot be fixed at the roadside... A 009 can always have a set of points jammed in it when things go wrong, a Dellorto sidedraft can always be bodged to limp home, the fuel pump can always be bypassed completely by sticking a jerry can on the roof to gravity-feed the carb (yes, I've done this before on my old Baja!), the turbo can always be set to deliver no boost, etc etc... With a simple tool kit and a few choice spares, most issues can be addressed well enough to limp home with an old setup.

Well, anyway, this morning I gave up. Ordered a 0.48 turbine housing, carbon shaft seals, carbon backing plate and thrust components for the Garrett T3 that I have to rebuild it.

I'll update later with how I get on once the parts are here, more so that anyone looking for solving the same problem as mine will have a chance of sorting it in the UK!

For info, ordered the parts from turborebuild.co.uk - they have been very patient and tolerant, and have really helped me out despite my looooong questions and endless emails, though I can tell they were a bit fed up with me by the end!

[madmike]

luv O'l skool stuff