Turbo Questions

[Spaceman7Spiff]

Hi everyone. New to this forum but not to VWs or other forums. I have a self-built 69 Baja with an 091 trans and a 1915 running a weber progressive and a 009 with pertronix and otherwise stock ignition.

On my last trip to the dunes, the engine was showing signs that a winter rebuild was in order so I parked the car and got the engine up on the bench where I plan to tear it down and fix what needs fixing and possibly look into more displacement if the budget allows.

I also have a turbocharger out of a mitsubishi (galant/talon/eclipse/etc) that I acquired for free that I want to use. I've poured over all 40 pages of Scott the Viking's turbo thread and have learned a ton but I still have some questions that I was hoping you could help me out with. Also, I really don't want to be "that guy" that asks the same poop over and over and over again so I have tried to search using google but still need some help. Apologies, in advance if I didn't look hard enough.

Here are my questions:

Ignition: It seems like the easiest/cheapest option is to just lock out or limit the advance on the 009 to 24 degrees (give or take) but I would like to know how it will run like that. Great? Good? Okay? Good enough? Bad? What would be the next step up from this in terms of cost-effectiveness? Am I correct in thinking that the real key is to have a system that has a boost-referenced advance curve? Please educate me.

Fuel delivery: I will happily say goodbye to that weber progressive one way or another. But from what I'm reading, it seems like a center mount weber 44 IDF prepped for boost is the easiest and cheapest option. Same questions for this: How does it run? Will I be screwing with it every single day like I am with that progressive?

Also, I'm aware of my options in the world of EFI but frankly I got cross-eyed trying to come up with even a partial shopping list for megasquirt and the money being asked for a system that you have to assemble and tailor yourself doesn't seem to match the level of hassle. I'm not afraid of doing things myself but I'm not interested in dumping countless hours and dollars into a project just to have it not run right and be right back here begging you all to help me make it run right. I enjoy turning wrenches and solving problems but I don't like fixing the same problems over and over again.
And it seems like any other suitable off-the-shelf EFI system might be out of my budget.

Any other hidden costs that I might encounter?

Thanks!

[madmike]

Welkome Spiff, Budget is the 'big issue' for me,, I run draw threw system cuz I'm a broke retired guy, and after dickin around with a small weber doce I finally step up to a 4 barrel Holley ,,I have a 1915 in my sand rail and a 2180cc & 2074cc for my bug all draw threw turbos
I run locked/limited to 24* and never any issues with Hot starts,I use a IMI gear reduction starter on my bug, but just a stock starter on my rail..both start great, You need a good Hot coil or the spark will blow out
as for drivability? an old lady could drive my stuff no bucking/stalling etc...
I grabbed a 2 stage Snow water.meth injection system off F.B. marketplace for $125 ,, I don't but 'Race fuel" anymore,just 93 oct. from the pump
Do u use the Baja just for the "Dunes"? You may want to look into E85

[buguy]

My first system was limited to 24 degrees in an 009 with a draw through Holley 4 barrel. I didn't really have any complaints about how it ran. I did spend countless hours trying different jets to get it just the way i wanted it. Later i switched to efi and it was better for me. One thing i would say is to look at the turbos others are running here. I had some cheap little turbo on mine, then saw the success Clone bug was having with his WRX turbo, so i grabbed one. It was much better. I don't know the turbo you have so i can't say how it will work, but i wouldn't run it just because it was free.

[Clonebug]

There are lots of ways to put a turbo on your engine/car.
You just have to pick the best way for your application. Since you are the Engineer and the Mechanic you will need to decide what works best for you.
The cheapest way is not necessarily the best way.
It might take a few revisions to get a good combo........one problem is the boost addiction which makes the original combo obsolete in about 2 weeks when you want to turn up the boost.
Anything will work........for a while.
Once you taste the boost only you can decide how far you want to go. 6.0 lbs is pretty easy but anything more starts to get a little more complicated.

A draw through can be fairly simple with a locked out distributor and the intake cooling a carb gives. For a daily driver your results may vary.....driving in cool weather may also give varying results.

Fuel injection can and will give great results and allow you to turn up the boost but it will cost more. I did mine in stages and while that worked for me it might not be for everyone.

Scott the Viking had some great stuff in that thread but he has been off this forum since before I started in 2007. While a lot of his stuff is great info.....a lot of those turbos are NLA anymore due to their age and the peak metal prices of years back that cleaned up all the scrap in the whole U.S.A.
You can get a brand new Chinese copy turbo for cheap and it might be the way to go now. A turbo that you can clock any way will make for an easier install.
Boost creep causes it's own set of problems in that more power starts breaking or fatiguing stuff. Transmissions will need to be beefed up....clutches won't hold and need to be upgraded.......higher boost means better chances of detonation and you get cracked pistons and barrels from that. A good sign is increased blowby......once you notice that you usually have a ticking time bomb. Let it go too long and the engine will go boom!!!!!

Read the forums and you can see different setups and the successes and failures of each build....take the best of each of them and build your own.

One other problem is that it becomes sort of an obsession....you will sell your left testicle to continue on the quest for more boost.

Have fun and enjoy the build....I've been addicted to the boost since 2011. It has been a great ride of 50,000 plus miles and counting.

[madmike]

I think we scared him off?

[Spaceman7Spiff]

I think we scared him off?

Haha no I'm still here. Just going about my weekend, continuing my research and considering your comments (thank you) in my free moments. I got the engine torn down. Looks like something sturdy went through the oil pump but I haven't found any other serious damage yet. Still have to check the wear on the crank etc.

[madmike]

Okee dokee

[Lo Cash John]

If you want to play on a budget do this:

Blow through the Weber you have. It can be done.

Stock mechanical pump can be modified to work with blow through.

Use a late model “dual vacuum” distributor. With minimal mods it will advance on very light throttle and retard on boost. Also you can add a Pertronix 2 module.

Once you master this, then you can easily convert to IDF or HPMX of DRLA or EFI.

[madmike]

Or,,, grab that A.J system off the slamba,,,,,It would be a great way to get 'started' in boosting

[Spaceman7Spiff]

I'll start by addressing some of your questions/comments:
-My car is about 50% dunes (Oregon Coast) 40% desert (Eastern WA) and 10% street.
-Maybe blowing through that Weber Progressive is the more cost-effective way to get started with boost but I have fought with that thing so much over the last 8 years that I have decided that it is never touching my engine again. I've had it with that thing and there is nothing that will change my mind.
-I'm not interested in spending any more money on any distributor-based ignition system. Maybe a different coil if it's cheap, but that's about it.
-I'm already running a little 10psi electric fuel pump. I don't think I own a useable mechanical pump anymore.
-I've read multiple opinions on blow vs draw though. Seems like a personal opinion thing so I'll just stick to my own: I like the look of blow through better, the characteristics and inherent issues seem to suit my needs better, and I'm pretty dead-set on it.
-I'm not using E85. It's really hard to find around here. Too much hassle.

Okay, on to my build plan... Tolerances have been checked and it seems the only thing that this engine will need besides fresh rings, seals, and bearings is an oil pump. I was running a filter pump but I think I'll full-flow the case and run an external pump filter and secondary oil cooler to help out my doghouse setup. Now, I could probably build up the engine at this point but I figure my top priority is boost, and since this setup still has some life left in it, it's probably best to leave it alone for the most part, build my turbo setup, and get it dialed in before I start thinking about more displacement.

So based on all of that and the information I have gathered, here's the plan:
1915cc,
counterweighted crank,
Scat C25 cam (similar to Engle 100),
Mahle hypereutectic pistons,
stock ported heads,
high rev valve springs,
solid rocker shafts,
elephant foot adjusters,
full flowed case,
external filter,
doghouse oil cooler + secondary oil cooler,
009 locked out (for now)
Center mount Weber IDF with emulsion tubes and mod rings,
E2000 fuel pump
7247 Fuel Pressure Regulator
DSM 14b turbo running blow through. looking for about 6-8psi for now.
Tri-Mil 1.5" Baja headers with flange on the collector (will add gussets and strengthen as I see fit)
wideband O2 sensor and gauge
boost gauge
no blow off valve but I'll make sure my charge tube has room for one to be installed later

Now here are some details I haven't quite worked out yet:
I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a chinese copy Weber IDF unless anyone here can give me a reason not to that is based on REAL WORLD PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I'm not sure if I should be going for a 40 or 44, though, so please give me your opinions on that while keeping in mind that a 2332cc is very likely in my future.

Do you think manifold preheat will be needed with this setup?

Do you think I should run more than one O2 sensor? Or maybe just put bungs in each of the header tubes as well as in the collector?

Also, I'd like to mention that my plan for ignition is to go ahead and run the 009 locked out to begin with and see how I like it. Eventually, I will probably go with an EDIS crank trigger setup and Megajolt or possibly Megasquirt. Megasquirt is out of my budget for right now, though.

I'm running a stock blue coil right now. Does this need to be upgraded immediately or is it a nice-to-have?

Alright, tell me your thoughts.

[Spaceman7Spiff]

Here's the most recent pic of my car just for funsies

[Lo Cash John]

Sounds like you have a good plan.

Manifold heat: You live in a cold environment compared to me. I would say it can't hurt and can potentially help make tuning easier. Here in Florida it's not as much of an issue.

o2 sensor: I see no reason for multiple o2 sensors unless you're tuning on some very exotic combo and trying to trim fuel on each individual cylinder. F1 and WRC type stuff. Place your o2 sensor AFTER the turbo. If you place it before the turbo, the pressure inside the header will kill the sensor in a short time. In a ideal world the sensor would be at least 16-18" minimum from the outlet of the exhaust pipe so it doesn't read a false lean condition. But since we turbo VW people tend to run really short pipes after the turbo, do what you can. Also, make sure the sensor is NOT mounted in the bottom side of the pipe where water and condensation can get to it. That kills them quickly also. Oh, and never run the engine without the o2 sensor powered up. That too is bad.

If you're running a blow through carb I have a good trick for you. You can use late model bug or bus "dual vacuum" distributor with terrific results. It will advance under very light throttle load and retard under boost. They are fairly cheap and easy to set up. I installed one on my buddy's blow through motor. I figured we'd run it a few times then install a CB BlackBox. Well, the dual vacuum distributor works so good we left it on there and the BlackBox is still sitting on the shelf.

Coil: Go with the highest output coil you can manage but make sure you ignition module (assuming you're not on points) can handle the load.

[madmike]

Only thing I'd swap out is,,Your gonna need dual Valve Springs

[Lo Cash John]

Dual springs are a great idea. Another option is to get a set of CB Performance 650 dual springs and run the outter springs only, but shim them up. That's what I did on my buddy's engine. The spring are shimmed to full lift -0.150". In other words, at full lift, there's only another 0.150" of valve travel before reaching coil bind.

Standard "heavy duty" springs can't deal with the RPM's and increased intake air pressure (boost) that's trying to blow the valve open. You're engine will run fine at lower RPMs and even higher RPM's if you're gentle on the gas pedal and not making boost. But trying pulling RPM's on boost and at a certain RPM (like 5200-5300 or so) it'll fell like you just threw a parachute out the back like a top fueler. This is because the RPMs combined with the boost is causing premature valve float.

[John S.]

I wish I could see the pic. My setup is similar.