Hi!
My name is Adriaan Pienaar. I am staying in South Africa, and I am the proud owner of a 1973 S.A.-built 412 Variant.
Does anyone have a permanent solution for wobbling front wheels (at speeds between 60 and 80 km/h)? My car is currently fitted with Porsche "Cookie Cutter" wheels, (195/60/15 tyres) but it had the same problem with it's original wheels. Balancing and re-balancing the wheels doesn't help at all, neither does replacing the steering damper. A few of my friends here in S.Africa who are also driving Type 4's, all have the same problem. Please Help!!! A.P.
Wobbling Front Wheels
-
Bobtail
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:01 am
Wobbling Front Wheels
I'm assuming your wheel bearings are OK?
when you tried the other wheels was that with the same tyres?
Welcome to the forum
Paul
------------------
www.centralvwaudi.com
when you tried the other wheels was that with the same tyres?
Welcome to the forum
Paul
------------------
www.centralvwaudi.com
-
Pine
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:01 am
Wobbling Front Wheels
Thanks, Paul
My wheel bearings are quite new - installed about 4 months ago - with no play or "roughness".
No, I did not use the same tyres. The car had 165's (radials) fitted when it still had the original wheels. (There's a picture of what the car looked like then on the www.type4.org site)
Regards
PINE
My wheel bearings are quite new - installed about 4 months ago - with no play or "roughness".
No, I did not use the same tyres. The car had 165's (radials) fitted when it still had the original wheels. (There's a picture of what the car looked like then on the www.type4.org site)
Regards
PINE
-
3rd_slow_411
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:01 am
Wobbling Front Wheels
Pine,
I would first look at the idler arm bushing, mine is worn-out.
IMHO the steering damper doesn't stop vibrations that are created between the steering wheel and the arms it is mounted to, or anywhere in between.
Also the idler arm bushing is the first (last) link to the steering wheel and probably will vibrate much worse than the wheels are vibrating. If you get both front wheels off of the ground and can see the idler arm, have someone wiggle the wheels, then you will see if it needs replacing. I'll let you know when my Super-beetle part (Ray's info) is in, if it helped. My mechanic seems to think the idler arm bushing will help a lot. He also knows Porsche 914's, so I'll check Ray's part desc. against the Porsche part#. I?ll post it soon, if it also fits.
Clay
[This message has been edited by 3rd_slow_411 (edited 12-13-2001).]
I would first look at the idler arm bushing, mine is worn-out.
IMHO the steering damper doesn't stop vibrations that are created between the steering wheel and the arms it is mounted to, or anywhere in between.
Also the idler arm bushing is the first (last) link to the steering wheel and probably will vibrate much worse than the wheels are vibrating. If you get both front wheels off of the ground and can see the idler arm, have someone wiggle the wheels, then you will see if it needs replacing. I'll let you know when my Super-beetle part (Ray's info) is in, if it helped. My mechanic seems to think the idler arm bushing will help a lot. He also knows Porsche 914's, so I'll check Ray's part desc. against the Porsche part#. I?ll post it soon, if it also fits.
Clay
[This message has been edited by 3rd_slow_411 (edited 12-13-2001).]
-
Pine
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:01 am
Wobbling Front Wheels
Thanks, Clay
I'll try your advise, but I wouldn't get to it before the end of the year. I'll keep you up-do-date.
Pine
I'll try your advise, but I wouldn't get to it before the end of the year. I'll keep you up-do-date.
Pine
-
ray greenwood
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:01 am
Wobbling Front Wheels
Heres some bits and pieces that may help. It will be long so hold tight.
The front end of my 412 is the tightest and best handling I have ever seen. There are some wear issues that cause the wobble that you must address.There are three or four main causes of the wobble...other than wheel straightness and balance and wheel bearings. Lets call those a given. Oh by the way, if the wheel balance weight is over 1oz...you must split it up inside and outside. The 411 is very sensitive to wheel balance because of the nearly centered wheel offset. Any vibration is multiplied by the length of the strut and the long control arms...making it hard to damp.
(1). Replace your ball joints. They are hard to find, but are out there. Do then now! while you can still get them. At a later point I will tell you how to install a grease fitting in them properly so they will last forever.
(2) replace the center link...it needs it! trust me. The TRW part is still available in the box. Part # DS 858...find a trw dealer. $72-$129 it varies. The only way to check this is by either removing it, or using two people. One to move the wheel about an 1" or so side to side while you have your fingers on the pitman arm and the center link at the same time. You will feel them moving in opposite directions. There is "0" tolerance for movement here.
(3) Idler arm bushing. The stock part was too soft. It is defective. It will be ruined everytime in less than 1 month...causing vibration and tracking problems through the corners. I will try and find the bronze bushing part #. I am having problems doing so. I have one in my 412...its KIller! Its also very easy to have made. Simply take an idler arm bushing and bracket to a machine shop...and have the metal tube part and inside bore diamter duplicated on a lathe...less than 100 bucks..and last forever.
(4) Very important part...rarely in any of the books. There is a diagonal arm...comomg off of the control arm going towards the rear of the car. This is called the radius arm. It has a rubber donut on each side of the "ear" where it mounts to the sub-frame. There is a part called a centering ring. It fits around this radius arm...like a grommet...and makes the transition between the arm and the hole in the "ear". It is compressed between the two donuts. It usually gone...and is not available. Measure what you need and have one turned from DELRIN...DO NOT USE NYLON...it will fail. This will take a lot of thewobble out of the suspension. YOU MUST HAVE THIS PART or the "ear" will crack and fail eventually. I can drop the dimensions in at some point. It is a very simple plastic grommet...and cheap to have made.
(5) replace your strut bearings YES THEY ARE SHOT...even if the car has "0" miles on it. If they are over 7 years old...they crack from age. This can only be seen with the car on jacks and the strut extended. Major cause of track control issues. If you have a 74...with the later oblong (superbeetle style mount) you are in luck! Use VW fox bushings...18 bucks each...direct replacement. If you have an earlier car..its worth it to spend 10 bucks at a junkyard to get the superbeetle (75-79) strut bearing holders (3 bolt 2 in font one in rear oblong variety) and modify the holes in your strut tower slightly...and buy new bushings. The bonded variety of bushings are like gold (123 bucks each) have age from sitting on the shelf, and are inferior in design.
(6) control arm bushings. Use bushings from a gold. Use threaded rod with pipe spacers...or a press to install. They will need an .060 thick washer at each end with a 13mm hole. They are about an 1/8" shorter in total length of the metal tube part...but work great and are 8 bucks each.
(7) Strut cartridges. I use KYB GR2 low pressure gas from audi 4000s and VW quantum. I have had made...a top stub adaptor that allows the use of the stock strut bearing, and the stock strut body with a 1.5" spacer under neath for the shorter cartrige. This allows nearly stock spring height/compression setting (which is almost perfect anyway). These are FABULOUS! You will not be able to use the high pressure gas...they will be too stiff for the limited weight of the front end. I went through 100's of shocks in the junkyard cutting them open with a pipe cutter, measuring them counting the shim stacks finding what is compatable. These are almost perfect. very good handling...very smooth ride!!! If you drop me an e-mail, I have a drawing with diemnsions to including thread pitches , to take to the machine shop and have them made. I can e-mail it to you. These are held on by internal thread, a14mm grade 10.5 lockwasher...and just for safety sake...a single spotweld from a mig welder...that cna be chipped loose easily to change cartridges.
The length of this stub also lowers the front end about 1/2-3/4"...which brings it perfectly level...which allows better static castor. The front end was set high from the factory, becasue it was designed to have that large trunck run full..for long trips.
(8) Alignment. The type 4 and superbetle do not have enough castor...period. This causes bump steering and wandering in the wind. The sub-frame design allow the SPLITTING of the castor from side to side...but not the addition of any extra. Factory has about 1.5 degrees castor. You need about 2.3 degrees +. If you replace the strut bearings, with the later models...at the smae time you should slot the holes..and slideth bearings backward...and gain about 1.2 degrees....much better. DO NOT let any alignment shop tell you 1 degree is close enough for anyof the measurements. These cars have to be DEAD EQUAL from side to side in ALL measurements...or else the leverage generated by the tall struts and long control arms...acting on too soft of an idletr bushing and control arm bushings...will cause problems. NOTE: If you run wider than stock tires...you will need slightly more toe in because of the extra outward thrust generated. This causes wobbling and lane wandering. Hope this helps Ray
The front end of my 412 is the tightest and best handling I have ever seen. There are some wear issues that cause the wobble that you must address.There are three or four main causes of the wobble...other than wheel straightness and balance and wheel bearings. Lets call those a given. Oh by the way, if the wheel balance weight is over 1oz...you must split it up inside and outside. The 411 is very sensitive to wheel balance because of the nearly centered wheel offset. Any vibration is multiplied by the length of the strut and the long control arms...making it hard to damp.
(1). Replace your ball joints. They are hard to find, but are out there. Do then now! while you can still get them. At a later point I will tell you how to install a grease fitting in them properly so they will last forever.
(2) replace the center link...it needs it! trust me. The TRW part is still available in the box. Part # DS 858...find a trw dealer. $72-$129 it varies. The only way to check this is by either removing it, or using two people. One to move the wheel about an 1" or so side to side while you have your fingers on the pitman arm and the center link at the same time. You will feel them moving in opposite directions. There is "0" tolerance for movement here.
(3) Idler arm bushing. The stock part was too soft. It is defective. It will be ruined everytime in less than 1 month...causing vibration and tracking problems through the corners. I will try and find the bronze bushing part #. I am having problems doing so. I have one in my 412...its KIller! Its also very easy to have made. Simply take an idler arm bushing and bracket to a machine shop...and have the metal tube part and inside bore diamter duplicated on a lathe...less than 100 bucks..and last forever.
(4) Very important part...rarely in any of the books. There is a diagonal arm...comomg off of the control arm going towards the rear of the car. This is called the radius arm. It has a rubber donut on each side of the "ear" where it mounts to the sub-frame. There is a part called a centering ring. It fits around this radius arm...like a grommet...and makes the transition between the arm and the hole in the "ear". It is compressed between the two donuts. It usually gone...and is not available. Measure what you need and have one turned from DELRIN...DO NOT USE NYLON...it will fail. This will take a lot of thewobble out of the suspension. YOU MUST HAVE THIS PART or the "ear" will crack and fail eventually. I can drop the dimensions in at some point. It is a very simple plastic grommet...and cheap to have made.
(5) replace your strut bearings YES THEY ARE SHOT...even if the car has "0" miles on it. If they are over 7 years old...they crack from age. This can only be seen with the car on jacks and the strut extended. Major cause of track control issues. If you have a 74...with the later oblong (superbeetle style mount) you are in luck! Use VW fox bushings...18 bucks each...direct replacement. If you have an earlier car..its worth it to spend 10 bucks at a junkyard to get the superbeetle (75-79) strut bearing holders (3 bolt 2 in font one in rear oblong variety) and modify the holes in your strut tower slightly...and buy new bushings. The bonded variety of bushings are like gold (123 bucks each) have age from sitting on the shelf, and are inferior in design.
(6) control arm bushings. Use bushings from a gold. Use threaded rod with pipe spacers...or a press to install. They will need an .060 thick washer at each end with a 13mm hole. They are about an 1/8" shorter in total length of the metal tube part...but work great and are 8 bucks each.
(7) Strut cartridges. I use KYB GR2 low pressure gas from audi 4000s and VW quantum. I have had made...a top stub adaptor that allows the use of the stock strut bearing, and the stock strut body with a 1.5" spacer under neath for the shorter cartrige. This allows nearly stock spring height/compression setting (which is almost perfect anyway). These are FABULOUS! You will not be able to use the high pressure gas...they will be too stiff for the limited weight of the front end. I went through 100's of shocks in the junkyard cutting them open with a pipe cutter, measuring them counting the shim stacks finding what is compatable. These are almost perfect. very good handling...very smooth ride!!! If you drop me an e-mail, I have a drawing with diemnsions to including thread pitches , to take to the machine shop and have them made. I can e-mail it to you. These are held on by internal thread, a14mm grade 10.5 lockwasher...and just for safety sake...a single spotweld from a mig welder...that cna be chipped loose easily to change cartridges.
The length of this stub also lowers the front end about 1/2-3/4"...which brings it perfectly level...which allows better static castor. The front end was set high from the factory, becasue it was designed to have that large trunck run full..for long trips.
(8) Alignment. The type 4 and superbetle do not have enough castor...period. This causes bump steering and wandering in the wind. The sub-frame design allow the SPLITTING of the castor from side to side...but not the addition of any extra. Factory has about 1.5 degrees castor. You need about 2.3 degrees +. If you replace the strut bearings, with the later models...at the smae time you should slot the holes..and slideth bearings backward...and gain about 1.2 degrees....much better. DO NOT let any alignment shop tell you 1 degree is close enough for anyof the measurements. These cars have to be DEAD EQUAL from side to side in ALL measurements...or else the leverage generated by the tall struts and long control arms...acting on too soft of an idletr bushing and control arm bushings...will cause problems. NOTE: If you run wider than stock tires...you will need slightly more toe in because of the extra outward thrust generated. This causes wobbling and lane wandering. Hope this helps Ray