Unloved,ugly duckling?

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 10:50 am

How many times have you heard these phrases?
I'm surprised at the amount and type of comments about the T4 .But put into perspective they sold over 400,000.
In contrast the E-type jag sold only 250,000,which was about the same as a 914!
There are more famous and popular cars which have sold alot less.
Me ,I love em and I was sorry to have to let go of my pick-up 411 and 2door 412LS.
But thanks to the likes of you guys I will still be able to buy another in the future ,when the time is right.

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www.centralvwaudi.com

ine · Post by **ine** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 1:35 pm

I couldn't agree more! I grew up in Type 4's (my father had two of them over a period of 14 years), and while he now drives a new C-class MBenz and my mother an MB A-class, they both agree that the two VW 412's we had was the most wonderful cars ever. I have often found that strangers stop me just to tell me that they also had a car like mine, a long time ago, and how happy they were with it. I suppose there were a few shortcomings, but I want to make a prediction, and mark my words tonight: a Type 4 revolution will start in a few years, when the usual air cooled VW fans will get bored and start looking for something other than a Beetle or Karmann Ghia, something more "modern" and practical. Type 4's WILL become highly sought after then. (Of course we'll be smiling, like we've always been!)
PINE
P.S. I bought my girlfriend a 1958 Karmann Ghia today, took delivery of it about 5 hours ago, and I have been driving it untill now, as she will only be getting it on Monday. I STILL LUUUVVVV MY VARIANT!!!

Pine · Post by **Pine** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 1:38 pm

I couldn't agree more! I grew up in Type 4's (my father had two of them over a period of 14 years), and while he now drives a new C-class MBenz and my mother an MB A-class, they both agree that the two VW 412's we had was the most wonderful cars ever. I have often found that strangers stop me just to tell me that they also had a car like mine, a long time ago, and how happy they were with it. I suppose there were a few shortcomings, but I want to make a prediction, and mark my words tonight: a Type 4 revolution will start in a few years, when the usual air cooled VW fans will get bored and start looking for something other than a Beetle or Karmann Ghia, something more "modern" and practical. Type 4's WILL become highly sought after then. (Of course we'll be smiling, like we've always been!)
PINE
P.S. I bought my girlfriend a 1958 Karmann Ghia today, took delivery of it about 5 hours ago, and I have been driving it untill now, as she will only be getting it on Monday. I STILL LUUUVVVV MY VARIANT!!!

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 3:31 pm

In the clymer shop manual....I love the first line under general description.. " The vw 411/412, is a most happy car. Pleasant to look at, comfortable to sit in, and without being spectacular, a joy to drive. It is a precise piece of engineering and like all such machines, will not respond to uninformed attempts to adjust it,"...I think this is probably one of the most descriptive openings to a shop manual I have ever seen. And fairly accurate. Ray

Pine · Post by **Pine** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 3:45 pm

mmm.....and Jens calls it an "ugly duckling" on his type4.org site!
Who still remembers what happened to the ugly duckling in the end....?
PINE

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 11:23 pm

Most people I have met that owned one actually loved the car. Most only got rid of them (sadly at that) because of expensive maintenance issues...and most of that was the fault of a dealer network unprepared for the complexity of the product. Ray

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:23 pm

I think that the only thing that will keep the 411/412 from achieving even moderate popularity is the scarcity of replacement parts, both NOS and aftermarket. You can get just about every bit and piece to rebuild a Bug from the ground up. Be prepared for a lot of frustration with the 411/412.

But I do agree with Pine, there is an underground growth of 411/412 enthusiasts. The American magazines are clueless to this, but it is happening. When I first posted my site ( http://www.tunacan.net/t4corner/ ), I never expected to meet as many Type 4 enthusiasts as I have. It's a very international group, but we all know that we aren't alone is our admiration of the 411/412 cars.

The best thing we can do is drive them, restore them, attend car shows/meets/cruises in our cars, and spread the word. People will be curious about the car and will ask. Rub your enthusiasm off onto them.

Tuna

m504specs · Post by **m504specs** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:13 am

Ugly, my foot. Take a look at the wildly popular Subaru Outback. Look familiar. VW 412 came before it's time.

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:43 am

The cars that vw made the 411/412 to contend with were the BMW 2002 and the saab 90....hmmmm interesting. Take a look at the shark skaped nose on the 412...and compare to the BMW 2.8 and 2.0 csi...And yes...Tuna is right. There is a growing undercurrent. I get offers from people all the time who want to buy my car. Most just like the way it looks...I always laugh and decline. They have no clue what they are getting into. Ray

bowlsby · Post by **bowlsby** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:20 pm

A couple of odd comments above:

<<...they sold over 400,000. In contrast the E-type jag sold only 250,000,which was about the same as a 914!>>

and

<<the scarcity of replacement parts>>

There were just under 120,000 914's built from 1970-1976. As a model, it had sold far more than any previous 'Porsche' yet was considered a failure by some because of low sales volume.

There are tons of new/used/NOS/reproduction spare parts for the 914 if you know where to look, so why would there be a dearth of parts for the 411/412 if there were nearly 4 times as many produced? Is the 400K unit production number accurate?

Its widely known that the earlier 914s, with the 1.7L engines used the identical 411/412 D-Jet fuel injected engines. I have often wondered if the 914 was, in part, specifically designed with the intention of finding a home for a large inventory of unused VW 411/412 engines, because the 411/412 cars were not selling.

Any inside information?

[This message has been edited by bowlsby (edited 12-17-2001).]

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:06 pm

Jeff, I have been wondering the same thing. The reason why I can't justify it to myself (the creation of the 914 being a way to get rid of parts) is because of the huge # of high dollar changes being made in the last two years of the 412....but then again....maybe those changes, including going to superbeetle strut bearings, and L-type injection...were just lining up the sub-assembly systems with the on-coming dasher, sirrocco, rabbit...which were already in the works. Its interesting some of the little cross match parts you can find to the early water cooled vehicles. Like just this weekend, I'm working on putting the factory intermittant wipers in the 412. They were an option in the last year. By the way, this is the same column lever system used in the rabbit through 77....same relay and wiper unit too...hmmmm..same rear wheel bearing part # too...hmmmm...anyway....The sad part is, that there just are not any aftermarket repro. parts for the 412 being made. One of the problems is that there were an awful lot of parts in the car. They also disapeared from the road so fast, that a lot of the after-market manufacturers assumed that there would never be an interest. The car-restoring public, seeing that lead...walked on by type 4's for years, on their way to buy a used bug, cause they knew they could get all the parts. Anything too long unsold...eventually ...sadly... gets crushed A lot of the 411/412's we, as a group have, were in captivity. That meaning that someone loved it...it got too expensive, they moved on...but kept the car sitting in the back 40 for 15 years. The vast majority...and more every day... have been crushed. I remember in high school seeing rows of type 4 in the junk yards. I used to scavenge to my hearts content. Ray