info on 411s?

Scott H · Post by **Scott H** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:29 pm

Hello Type 4 experts. I'm always interested in learning more about any aircooled VWs. I know very little about Type 4s.
I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me anything about the 411 in these pics: http://community.webshots.com/photo/579 ... 6475kUHWdo http://community.webshots.com/photo/579 ... 6525UoQwUF
I'd be interested to know what year it is and any other info, links to websites, etc.
I did find the type4.org website. It says that '69 models had single headlights, where this one has dual. But the VW emblem is on the trunk lid. A late '69?

Thanks

Kubel Nick · Post by **Kubel Nick** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:52 pm

2 door fastbacks like the one picture are the more desirable models of type 4's. If you pass it up at least give someone else here a chance for it.

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:00 am

Scott,

The car in the pictures is a '73 or a '74 412 2-door fastback. If the car is located here in the USA, then it is quite rare. Everything I've ever read about the Type 4 says that the 2-door fastback was never sold here officially. They were brought over from Canada or from Europe.

To see the headlight differences between a '69 411, a '70-'72 411 and a '73-'74 412, compare these photos with the pics on the home page of my website: http://www.tunacan.net/t4corner/

The picture on the left is of a '69 411, the custom 411 shows the dual headlights of the later 411s, and the photos you supplied are of a 412. The 412 lights are below the hoodline, whereas the 411 (both styles) are cut into the hood line.

Tuna

Scott H · Post by **Scott H** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:47 pm

Thanks for the replies Nick and Tuna.

Tuna,

Thanks for the information. Your site is great.
This car is badged as a 411.

I stopped by and took a couple more pictures of it today, showing the 411 badge on the rear.
Here is the rear shot: http://community.webshots.com/photo/579 ... 1571uKtNlB
Another shot, I backed up a little for this shot so you could see the Suburu beside it to show that it is the same car as the other pics: http://community.webshots.com/photo/579 ... 1529jzYfju

Is it possible that the wrong badge is on it? Or that the rear decklid (?) came from a 411? I'm certainly no expert but, overall, to my untrained eye the car `looks' all original, nothing looks mismatched to me. The overall patina of the car looks like everything has aged together. I know first hand that this car has been sitting in this spot since as far back as July 1992. The latest inspection sticker on it is dated 1990.
It is located in the USA.
Is this a mutt or some obscure Type 4?
Sorry for the long post and all the questions.

------------------
Scott
'72 Super

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 03-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 03-19-2003).]

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:25 pm

Thats simply the wrong decklid. or wrong badge. The car is a late 73 or early 74 412. The front headlights are no mistake. It should be a 4-speed 2 door. The front bumpers are 74 model year only shock absorber types. The color is L-96M...Marathon blue metallic. Identical to mine ..except mine is a nov. of 72 with early bumpers. Depending on the exact date of manufacture...it eiter has a D-injected 1.7 or an L-injected 1.8. It is in killer shape. Get it before it rusts! Make sure the four speed is in it. I think they shipped about 2200 of them. I belive there are less than 100 driving on the continent. They handle and drive fabulous when they are worked out. Ray

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:33 pm

Actually...its probably early to mid 73. Notice the rear bumper is chrome? Thats an early 412 or late 411 bumper. Some 411's had overriders. The chrome steel bumper only fits on those that can fit the bracket. I would suspect...that the front bumper is not mounted on shocks...its grafted to the steel plate mounts of the chrome bumper. This was common when people dinged the good chrome bumper. By the way...that rear bumper is pristine...that alone is worth about $150+. It also fits late type 3. Look for repaired front end damage....only because it has the wrong bumper on the body in the front. That is a sweet car.....I guarantee....you will love it...but it. Ray

Scott H · Post by **Scott H** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:33 am

Thanks Ray, you guys have been most helpful, I really appreciate it.

I took those last two pictures in pouring rain, so the streaks you see on that rear bumper are water.
I first saw this car in 1992. I see it every day on my way to and from work. In '96, I stopped and asked the guy if he was interested in selling it. He didn't really answer and just said that it was his son's car. Supposedly it was running when it was parked. He said that the wiper motor had gone out and they couldn't find one to replace it, so it was parked. Nobody was around when I took these pictures or I would've asked again.
If I can catch up with the guy or his son, and they won't name a price (assuming they're willing to sell it), what would be a fair offer?
If they are willing to sell it and I decide to pass on it, I will certainly let you guys here know about it. I'd just like to try to ensure that this car doesn't end up in the crusher.

------------------
Scott
'72 Super

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:02 pm

I got mine in the same way. Got the same answers..."its my sons car". The son only paid $1200 for it ...11 years earlier. It had stopped running for mysterious reasons (dropped valve). I got it for $350.

Know this: 411's and 412's only have value at this point...to people who want them and know how rare they are. Not trying to rip anyone off...but if someone you are dealing with values the car...they will let you know. I figure that when i come across a type 4...I'm one of maybe 150 total chances on this continent....for that person to ever sell that car at all. In the condition that car is...which means a total rebuild...but seems to have a good foundation....I would try to walk away for $500. Start at $250. Walk away at $750 with a personnal long term (but unstated) limit of $1000. If he says no to $500. Come back in a month.

By the way...today...I doscovered a nearly mint...not a dent in it...73 412 two door fastback with 4 speed, in Oklahoma city...sitting in a backyard. They are out there still! Ray

Bug-on · Post by **Bug-on** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:29 pm

Hello,
I've always been a bug person, and this is the first time I have even looked in the 411/412 forum. What is it about these cars besides rarity that makes them special and gives them a following (specifically your following). I have saved a little money and have been planning on investing in a project bug, but I love all things Vintage VW and am always interested in rarity.

BTW Ray I live in Oklahoma City and wouldn't mind seeing one in person. If your interested in the car you spoke of (if it is or might be for sell) or you would rather see it go to a long time 411/412 fan then don't tell me, but if not, where can I find it.
If I look at it after seeing Tuna's and Scott H.'s pics I might want it. They are cool and unique looking cars.
Thanks,
Bug-on

------------------
Live long and bug on!
1964 Standard model ragtop

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:41 pm

My parents live in OKC...I am from there. I have secret stashes of parts in and around there..... I have no idea if the car was for sale. It was in someones car.
It is in Spencer. Go north on Post rd....its north of 36th street and either just south or just north of 63rd st., on the left side (west) in a backyard, against the fence. It is a red 412 2 door fastback. I would love to have it...but have my hands full with the one I have. Ray

Kirk Knighton · Post by **Kirk Knighton** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:41 pm

Interesting conversation going on here! I have two type fours, a '71 411 wagon (not too rare?) and a '74 412 two-door fastback with four-speed transmission. The 411 is in great original condition, while the 412 is fully-restored, inside and out, silver-blue paint. I didn't know it was so rare! The only kind I've never had is a four-door, and there's a beautiful one for sale for $5,500 (or best offer), new engine, paint. Is it worth it?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:24 pm

If its truely restored...or is very fresh and has absolutely little wear and NO rust...thats not bad. Here is the problem:

In order to qualify as restored in my opinion:
It needs: FRONT END: new ball joints, tie rod ends, centerlink, control arm bushings, idler arm bushings, centering rings for the radius arms, radius arm bushings, strut cartridges, strut bushings and bearings, sway bar bushings. Tank removed and cleaned behind. New brake calipers (or rebuilt) brake lines, rotors, bearings.

All new fuel lines (the rubber lines)
Engine: this in itself is involved if done correctly.
Transaxle if 4 speed will need several things to survive...and I have met no one else on the continent who knows what those things are other than myself. I'll relay it later
The interior goes unsaid,..but headliner, gaskets for the glass and fender welting.
Clutch slave and master cylinders, rear trailing arms bushings and shocks...etc.

What I,m getting at...is that uless one of a handful of people with a lot of fabrication skills worked on it...its not even close to restored...and therefore not a $5500 car. But...if whoever sells it can answer all of the above questions...and it looks and drives straight...its a good deal. Most of those parts I listed have been unavailable on any continent for about 20 years. But there are lots of ways to get around that. All of them take a lot of work. Ray

Kirk Knighton · Post by **Kirk Knighton** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:19 pm

No...it's a car with 129,000 miles on it, owned by a retired guy in Florida. He died last Fall, his kids are selling it. Said their dad wanted to sell it for $7,500; I pointed them to the "pricing guide" at type4.org, and they dropped the price. They sent pictures and even a dvd they made from digital video. All that is new is the engine and paint; it does look like it has been well taken care of. How much do you think I should offer?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:06 pm

Not worth it. Trust me. If the car were "0" miles and 30 years old...it would need to be stripped to the frame mechanically. My first 411 had 55,000 well cared for miles. It had not been regularly driven in a few years. It all had to be re-done.
These cars are unforgiving in many ways: (1) 129,000 miles is about basic rebuildpoint for the engine and drivetrain of a factory 412. (2) the front and rear shocks are good for about 70K....and are no longer made. (3) the strut bushings and all suspension rubber parts are good for about ten years...with or without milage...and are no longer made.

Just a few things to think of. The front end is unforgiving. Becasue the control arms, and struts are so long on this vehicle, if any play is introduced through wear in a particular part, it quickly destroys whatever is attached to it....its leverage. This is just by normal driving.
Many people are willing to put up with idiosychracies in the way type 4's drive because they write it off to the quirks of driving an old VW...and the legendary factory "shimmy" factory struts. Those are a myth. The cars generaly need fixing, and seldom last more than a couple of seasons on the road before you break something you cannot buy anymore. they have to be put back together correctly and maintained, or you will work on them forever. Parts are already rare. There are ways to use crossmatch parts, but correct fabrication and minor changes are necessary. I find most drivers over the years, whom i have met, that drive type 4's are willing to put up with 16 seconds of 0-60 times and black plugs "cause they assumed thats how they are supposed to run....not true. I have been owning, driving and restoring them since about 1978. If the body is perfect, and the interior and gaskets are too...kits worth about 3500...max. At 129,000 miles...to drive it anywhere on a semi-regular basis...its going to require about $3000 for the motor and drivetrain for an honest, top quality factory stock rebuild (with some improvements)..and about $650 for the front and rear suspension rebuild (including brakes). Let me know if I can help. Ray

Kirk Knighton · Post by **Kirk Knighton** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:40 pm

Hi Ray - well the car does have a new 2000cc "bus" engine with hydraulic lifters. Otherwise I don't know what's new. What would be the top price you think I should offer? Thanks, Kirk