whoa -- nelly -- put on the breaks

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:11 pm

Greetings. Anyone know of brake up-grades for the bay busses/westys ? Aftermarket, porsche, bmw. Whatever. Already have front factory discs. Want to add rear discs. Thanks, Regis 78 Westy

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:11 pm

Can you lock the brakes up now? If so you have enough brakes for the car, anything more is a waste.

Unless you have noticed brake fade I would leave it alone. Even if you have fade make sure everything is in tip top shape and that may make braking easier... Also cheapo pads suck, change them to Pagid or Mintex.

Rear brakes only account for 10% of a cars braking ability, there fore the stock drums are way more than adequate.

If you are experiencing front pad fade then you are really doing an impressive job either riding the brakes or racing it on the track

The purpose of bigger brakes is to have more area of rotor and pad to disipate the heat that is created from repeated hard brake usage, like track conditions.

The best brake upgrade is tires. Are you running "D" load range tires? If not do this first and then you can look into other forms of modifications. Crappy passenger tires suck on baywindow busses.

This weekend while autocrossing my 911 I lined up beside a brand new Corvette Z06 (love that smell of a new car). I was amazed at how small the rear calipers were! Sure you have a huge rear rotor but the pads were relatively small. This Corvette hauls butt and is very at home on a full race circuit track, I guess the GM engineers are confident that the smaller pads are adequate for 150+MPH and I tend to agree.

Hope this is helpful. Plainly stated the '79 brakes are the biggest for the Bay so grab a set of those from the junkyard.

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochise"

Brutus · Post by **Brutus** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillow:
<B>Can you lock the brakes up now? If so you have enough brakes for the car, anything more is a waste.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly - and you explain why in your very next sentence - fade.

I know the traditional rational of 20% braking is rear other 80% is front - but I've always wondered how close to that ratio the average rear engine bus or bug is. I know one of mine is further off than most cause of almost no weight in the front end. I guess it's a competion between the effect of weight distribution and momentum.

There are some other good reasons for having rear disks -

1. You do alot of off pavement camping and disks aren't as effected by water, sand, ect.

2. Disks wear better.

3. You put really big, heavy rear tires on and need to combat that rotational mass.

4. That 350 V-8 you just threw back there really added to the weight distribution and speed.

Good reason not to do it - Because your brakes keep overheating going down the mountains - down shift and save the brakes.

Heath

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'69 Baja, '76 Baja, '67 Half Baja, '68 Bus, missing my '59 Double door

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 7:46 pm

Greetings. Nothing wrong with the factory set-up. They ( the man ) make rear disc conversions for everything. Even my Trek bicycle. Just wanting to know the deal. Thanks, Regis

Derek May · Post by **Derek May** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:43 pm

I was whining about my brakes the other day -- blamed the drums. Turns out I needed a new master cylinder. Whoa, what a difference.

Sometimes we forget these things are 25 years old, and to start any "improvement" quest by ensuring the damn things are set up properly with components that aren't worn out.

I've swapped the worn out marshmallow P rated tires for the proper load rating (you don't actually need "D", "C" rated truck tires are sufficient -- the Michelin LTX is great -- although I'm sure to generate controversy there). Huge difference there.

I replaced the shocks -- huge difference.

Replaced the master cylinder.

I'm learning that many of the things I assumed were attributes of a bus are actually attributes of a bus with worn out systems.

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 8:58 am

Derek writ:
"I'm learning that many of the things I assumed were attributes of a bus are actually attributes of a bus with worn out systems."

That is the biggest piece of obvious truth I have seen lately! Right on target.

I have known many bus drivers who complain about thier busses handling and performance but do nothing to fix it. They just accept that the bus handles poorly and keep going! Perfect example of my buddy with a '71 Westi, he hates how it wallows on passenger car tires, but will not step up for a good set of tires!

I know a lot of people really go cheap on thier busses which is okay, but do not expect stellar performance in any way from a worn out el cheepo'ed vehicle.

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochise"

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:15 pm

Greetings. Still looking for a Yes or No. lol. Happy Trails

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:46 pm

Acouple of details are missing here. Factory braking #'s only relate to factory tested load patterns...ie: empty. If you have the bus loaded...that goes out the window with shifts in enertia. A couple of good reasons to change to discs if possible...please note:...you will rarely get any better braking by going to discs...BUT...you will get more consistent braking...because the self adjusting factor of discs allows active brake contact quicker during the enertial shift...so less weight pulls off of the rear wheels before friction on the rotor begins...efectively slowing the enertial shift. Also, the rolling ball type of brake pressure regulator on the bus is seldom accurate after 5-7 years...because of internal rust and corrosion....try and find one of those babies new! Lastly, if you drive in traffic like Dallas or Atlanta has...you will experience brake fade every day. CB has a system that should bolt right up. Keep the rear pressure reg....but get an aftermarket adjustable one..so you can set it up for maximum braking, less forward nose diving and no skids.One of the reasons why the brakes on the rear of newer cars are so small is because they are anti-lock...and also operate at higher pressure. Size isn't usually the issue. Also they are the first items replaced in factory motorsport additions...especially on the vette. The V-8 powered front engine vehicle...especially a two seater with absolutely nothing in the rear, already has a forward weight bias and demonstrates no similarity to what you should find in a rear engine vehicle. Take a look at the rotors and calipers on the back end of a 911...pretty fat. Ray

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 10:33 pm

Greetings, Thank you for the input. Happy Holidays, and Trails

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 10:34 pm

Greetings, Thank you for the input. Happy Holidays, and Trails

david thomas · Post by **david thomas** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 5:40 pm

as stated, we dont stop to think that our vehicles are old, and the components are too. braking systems are a very important commonly overlooked or maintained at a minimum cost item - until the day that your pride & joy ends up in the back of the car in front!!
firstly, does your bus have a servo? are all the pipes connected, not split, and does it work?
secondly, the master cyl is not expensive. replace it.check brake pipes for corrosion and dents etc. if in doubt, replace the lot.
flexi hoses. we have a lot of people complaining about brake efficiency, after replacing flexi hoses, mucho improvement. they look fine, but swell up inside over time.
then make sure that everything is ok at the wheel ends. if in doubt, replace. im sure that will cure the problem.
people may read this and say its overkill, or i cant afford to do this, but would you rather spend a small amount on brakes than a front panel, bumper, etc, and think of those passengers that you carry too!

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 2:30 pm

I agree. It is false economy to work piecemeal on brakes. Short of replaceing the servo, almost any VW brake system on the air cooled vehicles can be replaced for under 300 in parts. That includes all cylinders calipers drums, having the rotors turned...and sometimes replaced, teflon stainless brake-lines (which are cheaper than stock now) new hardware kit front and rear...and new high quality pads. I do wheel bearings and seal as well at the same time. To get this much done at a brake shop would cost 125 an axle. Ray

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Tue Dec 11, 2001 10:58 pm

Greetings, As a fatter of mact, The westy goes in this week for a TOTAL brake overhual. Front and rear wheel/axle bearings, CV joints and related hardware. Power bleed , fresh fluid, spring hardware, etc. etc. I am an advocate of having new parts. Then it'll be done. Totally road worthy. Happy Holidays

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:10 pm

Regis101, where are you taking it?

I have seen Midas and some other small local chains here butcher brake jobs on VWs. Wierd becasue I always think that VW brakes are the easiest around to change.

I would advise to shop for a good garage to do the work... I am probably pointing out the obvious though

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochise"

regis101 · Post by **regis101** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:19 pm

Greetings. I take the volkswagen to a volkswagen mechanic. The harley goes to a harley mechanic, etc,etc. I have been wrenchin' on cars for twenty+ years. Only now I have someone else do it for me. They are checked out before any cash falls. Usually starts off with a test of their knowledge. I'm O.K. Thanks for the concern. Happy Holidays, Regis