What to use for lifters?

CptanPanic2 · Post by **CptanPanic2** » Fri Jun 23, 2000 12:49 pm

I first want to say that these forums have far exceeded my expectations as being a place where knowledge can be exchanged and archived for later retreival. We have already over 120+ registered users, and many more that just read the posts. Thanks for coming.

As for my lifter question, I was going to use CB performance lightweight type 4 lifters, but they won't be in stock till late august. So what should I get, are lightweight lifters any good anyway?
Thanks.

vw@micron.net · Post by **vw@micron.net** » Tue Jun 27, 2000 7:00 am

I don't know anything about the CB lifters. I'll tell you what I am going to run though.

My case from Power Tuning Parts is going to be bushed for Type 1 lifters. I am then going to run light weight Scat type 1 lifters. Oliver also sells a super light 39 gram setup but cost is prohibitive for my meager funds.

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:39 pm

We ran type 1s in the desert motor. They worked well and we never saw any sign of the typical type 4 tracing on the cam.

CptanPanic2 · Post by **CptanPanic2** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 7:25 pm

What exactly is required to use Type 1 lifters on the Type 4?

morpheus · Post by **morpheus** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 8:22 pm

Has Gene Berg Inc.processed any lifters and cams for the type IV case?I heard they break in their cams on the promisis before shipment.I would LOVE if they got their hands in type IV goodies..Web cam has any one used their products?

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 9:17 pm

You need to have the lifter bores sleeved to type 1 diameter.

Post by **Tom Notch** » Sat Jul 08, 2000 4:06 am

Berg makes No parts for a T4 engine, I'll have to ask Clyde next weekend when he's up IF they have entertained ANY thoughts of getting into the T4 engine. They stayed out of them B4 due to the smog rules and the CARB (California Air Resoures Board) hassles on emmision testing. Web is one of the best cam grinders in the bizs. FAT is also a good source

After thinking for awhile on the lifter,cam clearance issues, etc. that have surfaced here as of late, I have a few ramblings and hunches on how and possibly why things are done. Undoubtably this has all been figured out by some one far more experienced in T4s than me. I just haven't seen or heard it yet.

On big stroke T4s where the cam lobe to rod clearance issue rears it's ugly head (this is unique to T4s as their lobe placement is different than the T1) I think I now see a way to get a bigger throw in one. One would have to use a small base circle cam AND also with less lift. This would give the maxium available room for the rod and cam lobe. The lift at the valve would then be made back up with the addition of ratio rockers. Somewhere at home (yes, I'm stuck at work this weekend) I have the actual ratios of the stock T4 rockers. The exhaust is less than the intake, one of the reasons that dual pattern cams are a plus in a T4,(that and the restrictive exhaust port) so I'll have to add that info soon. I can see this getting added to my T4 rantings on my web site, maybe.

The next logical question to myself is "Is this worth it?" Depends on what you want, and your budget. How much are Pauter rockers? How much is cam life affected? Would an 86x105 (2979cc) motor be adequate? The questions that give meaning to life.

A new aftermarket case would sure be neat. One with the cam dropped and of a T1 style of cam lobes. Which would require T1 style push rod tubes. Which would require a new head. And allow a 94mm, or bigger, crank! Ahhhhh, enough dreaming for now, back to reality, Work!!

----------------
Tom Notch

[This message has been edited by Tom Notch (edited 07-09-2000).]

Post by **Tom Notch** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 1:04 pm

As I tried to convey in my original post, Berg doesn't really market HP parts specificly for T4, and what I should have added is that there are some parts that will interchange (I have the T1 to T4 Berg oil pump adaption on my web site and the push rods,and 8mm swivelies in my T4 parts box, the temp thing isn't a HP part imho). But Gene was Very adament about Wasser and T4 parts being too much of a liability due to the CARB laws ( you know the warning"Not for street use, off road use only", thank you, CARB) when he was still with us, and laws have changed since his passing. True you could get a custom wasser crank from them on special order but I don't think their crank forging would allow the tapered snout of a 4, can't answer that one 'cuz they no longer have any of those 1st forging left. I do know (and you didn't hear it from me) that their new MASSIVE 2nd generation forgings will allow T4 cranks and with or with out flanged flywheels. It is a new set of dies and has even more metal available than their first ones. And I will be "working" on Clyde over the next month while he is here and while on the Berg Cruz. I think, again you didn't hear it from me, that you will see them doing T4 cranks and maybe a few other parts in the not too distant future.
On their FI stuff, I've been involved on R&D work for several years and some of the results is making it to market. One of the items that we are really working hard on are some sets of maps for the Haltech that will be shipped with the brain and will get you close enuf "out of the box" for you to get your engine running easily and then fine tune the maps to your particular engine needs.

You should see a head that Clyde has been working on when he has a few extra moments. How about a T1 head that fits a T4? Its a one pair only test and it's not for Berg's testing. It is being done for somebody else and they aren't 'murcians. Didn't hear it here!!!

------------------
Tom Notch

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:02 pm

Thanks for the inside scoop, Tom Notch!! When I talked to Clyde about a month and half ago, he seemed really open to the Type 4 idea, so what you are saying doesn't surprise me.

The temp dipstick in my opinion is a must have for a high performance street car. It's simple enough and provides a critical monitoring of the oil temp. I've seen people that wasted their engine because they relied on their guages. Everyone of my engines will have one.

Tuna

CptanPanic2 · Post by **CptanPanic2** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:14 pm

What does 'murcians mean? Well anyway a Type 1 head with Type 4 bolt pattern would be awesome. That could change everything.

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 6:54 pm

I looked it up in my "Tom Notch VW terminology dictionary" and it said:
'muricans == Americans

morpheus · Post by **morpheus** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 8:29 pm

Berg is it! I love the inside track,thanks for information.killer.what ratio rockers can be used on a type IV head with a Web or Engle Cam?And why can't a type I head mate with a type IV case.

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 9:31 pm

Bore spacing and stud patterns are two problems that quickly come to mind. Probably pushrod spacing as well.

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Sun Jul 09, 2000 11:12 pm

Contrary to popular opinion, Berg does make a part for the Type 4 engine. They have an excellent oil temp. dipstick that is available for both the Bus and 914 style dipstick tubes.

Many of their other products can be used on a Type 4. The igntion systems (like the Stinger setup), the fuel injection stuff (minus the manifolds obviously), pushrods, clutchs, valve adjusting screws (for the 8mm rocker arms), valve springs, and a few others.

In fact, my European friend (who's been building high performance Type 4s for over 15 years) says that they will only run the 160,000 psi Gene Berg pushrods. They've found the rest to flex, break, or come apart.

I don't know if this is true, but I also believe you can special order (prepaid obviously) one of Berg's cranks done to Type 4 specs. In my opinion they are the best around and would be a worthwhile investment for a high stress Type 4.

I don't see Gene Berg Ent. ever becoming a supplier of Type 4 only parts, but there are enough of their quality parts that will also work on a Type 4. It's just a matter of knowing what crosses over.

What we need is for a company to step up to the plate and offer the quality, innovation, and information that Berg offers. His catalogs are the best for learning about hot rodding the Type 1 engine, but we don't have a similar Type 4 offering.