My gearbox has broken.. :(

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:41 am

Actually I have 2 questions..

Anyway, I left home last night in the type 4 to go bowling, not long after that I went to turn right, let the clutch out, and the something went in the gearbox with a whiring sound. No drive in any gear. I had to abandon it in a garage forecourt. Me and a friend later recovered it by pushing it accross a junction, then rolled it downhill all the way to his house (where it is safe)..

I think the clutch is ok, as it only makes a noise when the clutch is out.
Its not the drive shafts as they are not turning. So what is it most likely
to be? My guess is the diff? I need to get the car home and jack it up and see if the 2 wheels are still 'connected'..

I think I will need to find another gearbox. My car is a 1972 T411LE (manual), do all other manual type 4 gearboxes fit? Are there any ones to avoid or go for?

Thanks, Chris

MchAlf · Post by **MchAlf** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:17 am

Hi' Chris ...

How does your shift stick feel ?

If your lucky it's only the linkage that gone loose / broken.

Buy the way, how many miles has the box run ???

Mch.

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:36 am

Shift feels fine, pretty sure the linkage is ok.. Don't know about the gearbox, its probably the origional box, and has probably run near 150k-200k miles..

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:05 am

Friend of mine recons its most likely just the clutch that has gone? I hope so!

MchAlf · Post by **MchAlf** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:12 am

Hmmmm.... there is only one way to find out

Ray Greenwood has also talked about a " ticking time bomb " inside the manual boxes that goes off about 150k.

If the new search work you should find it

Talking about manual boxes there are 3 types FA / FC / FE.

FA - early type - 8 '70 R/P 41/11 Sedan ( small slave cylinder )

FC - later type 8 '70 - R/P 43/11 Sedan / Variant

FE - later type 8 '70 - R/P 39/10 Variant

Mch.

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:45 am

I have found the thread (http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19904), but it sounds like that problem only affects specific gears...

Post by **Tom Notch** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:19 am

Check for a broken CV joint. Do this by jacking up the car and looking at the axles when you spin the tires. You would see the axle turn but not the CV and flange it is bolted to.

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:27 am

I will check that also, though I rebuilt the drive shafts about a year ago, and they looked fine then..

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:13 am

It sounds like the counter shaft. Its part of the disease. Several other things...I have lots of info. Every other post does not go...so I'm not typing long responses until this thing gets worked out. Ray

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:03 pm

Been trying to give a detailed reply. I just sent one to the wrong post and it went through. If you get this, contact me on personnal e-mail until the forum is fixed. Ray

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:38 pm

This seems to be working now...cross fingers. A little explaination. The type 4 four speed is unique...totally. It has 3 castings on the case. The tail cone, the gear transfer section andthe differential section. If you fry the Diff section...save it for parts for Gods sake. But you can easily put another differential section onto the gear section. Or vica versa. The gears (contained in that section of case with the lid) must be kept with the case. The countershaft is shimmed to the case. These shims come in two differnt sizes per each end...and of course are unobtainable..but are stamped on the back and only fit one way. The 3rd gear spacer is set to the counter shaft spacing, so it stays with the gear stack and the case as well.
The defects: The countershaft gear cluster is long and heavy. It is heavily loaded in first and 4th. It has one oil hole and no outlet for flow through peoperly. It has only two needle bearings. The shaft is case hardened.
At about 70k+ miles, the needle bearings start to get worn...or the countershaft...or both, causing misalignment. This causes spalling on the gear faces of 4th gear in the beginning. You get a low level hum. You can drive for 30-40k mileson this thing and never have a problem. When it oes its catastrophic. The counter gear loses teeth. When its gone...the entire gear section is junk cause you cannot swap new gears in and out when the wear is over about 30k miles on the whole tranny. Its causes ugly fast wear. Its best to get a good gearbox and fix the defects.
The next defect: The final drive ratio is high. When the diff side bearings or pinion bearings get worn...it will destroy the pinion gear in the same method that the counter gear was worn. Get a box...replace and adjust the bearings before you drive a single mile. It'll last another 100k.
Next defect: the differential side stubs ..or output gears wear a little. The diff must be taken apart...and new .010" side shims put in BEFORE spyder gear wear and chunking of teeth start. These spyders fit nothing else...so take care of them.
The counter gear shaft is a simple 18mm straight shaft with a 15mm recess groundin the end. They are cheap to make from either tool steel or hardened shaft stock. The problem is, that the needles run on the inside of the counter gear. The gear loses its surface hardening and the needle no longer have a smooth surface to ride on. the solution is to buy needle sets that have the outside metal race. Cartridge style like a clutch pilot bearing. The correct ID and OD tend to come about 5mm shorter...but press in tight and leave more room at each end for oil collection. They work well. The one oil hole in th center of the countershaft should be enlarged slightly and have an oil scoop ground with a die grinder in the direction of rotation. Kinda like the mains on a crank. Then, at the end holes where the needles are, where the end thrust bearings contact the gear cluster...run 3 straight radial grooves outward with a grinder at 120 degree intervals. Do not nick the gear teeth...and polish them well. The scooped oil hole, allows more oil flow into the gear. the vent grooves allow faster exit so the oil flows through. The extra 5mm of space around the needles allow a little more room for oil. Save all parts from broken trannys. The synchros usually respond well to simply matching and swapping from other gearboxes to get the measurements back to spec. A type 3/4 automatic differntial is the same type and manufacturer...but machine work isnecessary to get it to fit...and the pinion presses right on. But the corret late model must be used. Contact me for details if you need to do this with abox. Beware of synchro changes . There were two different synchro designs in the late gearbox and the synchros in the earlier ones were slightly different. The eraly ones also were the ones with the skinny slave. Ray

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:03 am

Thanks for the info Ray, most of this is beyond me however. I have recovered the car now, and got it on axle stands. When in gear, I can turn each rear wheel independently, suggesting it is the diff.. I plan to find a replacment box and swap it straight in. Do you want the old box, or bits of it?

Chris

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:41 am

Thanks fpr the offer Chris, but you are just too far away. It is actually a lot of simple mods. This requires no speial tools. It is worth it do the mods. the next tranny will sooner or later succumb to either the differential problem or the countershaft problem, as well. Let me know if you would like me to walk you through on e-mail or the phone. Ray

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:00 am

Ok, will do.. I have printed out your text, and will consider it when I have a replacment box on my bench...

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:44 pm

Sad news Chris

I had this happen to me ,it turned out the spider gears went west.
I have a suspicion that a T2 diff is the same ............Ray?

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