Engine removal? Rear seal?.

[vwbill]

Hey, got the engine disconnected and it moves but doesnt look like it will come forward enough to get the clutch to clear without the front tranny mount loosen? Is this correct or do you just pivot the engine downward to get it out? Also, does anyone know the seal numbers for the rear tranny seal and the rear main seal? Can you get them from Napa or do you have to go to a specialty shop? What about clutch part options? Local auto parts or specialty shop? Man, why do they hide that 17mm(Rt. top) behind the intake throttle housing!! And the 10mm fan boot house bolts! lOL! Can want to see what that clutch area looks like and to get to the compartment cleaning, lol Thanks Bill

[raygreenwood]

The best way to do this isto put a block under the tranny so it doesnot drop all the wya to the floor. Leave abou 6-7 inches of space between the tranny and the block. The starter and the top tranny hanger should stay on the tranny along with the ruber engine mounts. There are two vertical bolts on either side of the tranny rubber mounts. Suppot the engine and tranny and take those out. Catch, count and save the shims that drop from the top of them. When those bolts are loose..the tranny will drop with the mount and starter still connected. The support underneath will only allow it to drop to about 6-7 inches off the floor. This makes install much easier. Is this and Auto or a manual? If its manual..pull the rear seat...remove the eplate and the rear plug from the tranny...and pull out the drive shaft. It makes it much easier cause now the clutch is disengaged.
There are to different rear main (flywheel) seals used. One was about 12mm deep..the other was only 10. Otherwise they are the same. Measure the seal depth recess if you get the small seal into the deeper hole...you will leak like mad casue the seal will go in too deep.
The tranny nose cone seal can be gotten at any seal/bearing shop...but not at any parts store on the planet. It isnot the same as any otherVW.
It measures 17x30x7mm. CR makes one part # 6620. Its about 3 bucks.
Ray

[vwbill]

The best way to do this isto put a block under the tranny so it doesnot drop all the wya to the floor. Leave abou 6-7 inches of space between the tranny and the block. The starter and the top tranny hanger should stay on the tranny along with the ruber engine mounts. There are two vertical bolts on either side of the tranny rubber mounts. Suppot the engine and tranny and take those out. Catch, count and save the shims that drop from the top of them. When those bolts are loose..the tranny will drop with the mount and starter still connected. The support underneath will only allow it to drop to about 6-7 inches off the floor. This makes install much easier. Is this and Auto or a manual? If its manual..pull the rear seat...remove the eplate and the rear plug from the tranny...and pull out the drive shaft. It makes it much easier cause now the clutch is disengaged.
There are to different rear main (flywheel) seals used. One was about 12mm deep..the other was only 10. Otherwise they are the same. Measure the seal depth recess if you get the small seal into the deeper hole...you will leak like mad casue the seal will go in too deep.
The tranny nose cone seal can be gotten at any seal/bearing shop...but not at any parts store on the planet. It isnot the same as any otherVW.
It measures 17x30x7mm. CR makes one part # 6620. Its about 3 bucks.
Ray

Hey Ray, thanks for the response! I pulled the shaft from the access hole under the rear seat and have detached the cross bar motor mount from both sides from one of your previous help post! I just didnt know if I was suppose to pull the tranny mount bolts that are way up there? I know you said something but I didnt know if that was about the two bolts and nut from each side of the cross motor mount, lol! I'll get that tranny mount bolts out and she should come on down and out, yeah!
Then all I need to do is clean and rebuild the goodies, LOL! So on the main seal do you need the part number for the seal or is it based on the depth of the seal(10mm, 12mm)? On one post you talked about a "O"ring in there is true? Thanks for the other seal number! Have to go to the bearing shop and see. I'll try to get the number off the main before I pull it. Thanks for all the help Ray!!! Wahoo Bill

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, I found a rear main seal felpro #BS25034 at the Autozone site for the 25 range(dont konw the depth), and Napa listed a rear main seal for 5 bucks with a NOS29525. Sounds too cheap for a rear main seal? Is the tranny seal also the pinion seal(Rear)(front) was listed with timken numbers 239146,223010 in the 6 to 7 buck range at Autozone? They have the clutch disc and plate listed, but can you use the bus type 2 clutch set? Is the flywheel the same on both 1700's? It would be nice then you can order from the original stuff. Lot of peices to get together! Isnt there a pilot bearing and bushing, two main seals, clutch set, throw-out bearing and clips and didnt you talk about a felt thrust wash also?
Does the seal kit for it include any of the main seals? Thanks for the help bill? Anyone know where to get those triangle boots for the rear light plug cover or should I just silicone them?

[raygreenwood]

The things you will need are: The main seal. The original stock thin one of 10mm is 029-105-245 B. Oddly..the thicker 12mm seal that mine uses is 021- 105-245 B. Find out how deep your seal depth is. All other dimensions of the seal are the same. If yours ran with no leaks from the oil seal...match the one that is in it.
You will also need the graphited O-ring, and the felt ring that goes outboard of the pilot needle bearing, and the pilot needle bearing itself.

BUS clutch covers...are essentially the same.....The CLUTCH DISC FROM A BUS WILL NOT FIT...it has a different shaft spline size. Have yours rebuilt. The flywheels are the same.
The other small seal goes around the shaft from the transmission that goes into the clutch disc. You must replace that any time you remove the shaft. The differential side seals are not the part you want...although replacing it while the tranny is out would be smart. Be sure you get the right one as there are two differnt thicknesses. Us the part # that is samped on it.
Th trans shaft seal can be gotten from any bearing dealer. Just look in the phone book under bearings and seals. Use the dimensions provided and they will give you the correct seal.
On the trans mounting bushings....they are held to the crossmember by one large bolt each, that requires a 17mm wrench and socket. Just leave those two bolts in...so the rubber bushings stay mounted to the metal crossmember. Those bushings...in turn are mounted to a larger cross member by a pair of bolts on each bushing, one on each side of both bushings (4 total). You will have to lay under the car with a long extension and a 13mm socket to unscrew them, because they screw in, straight up. If you do not remove the tranny this way...its a lot larger hassle to get those rubber bushings back into their slots in the frame member when the engine gets attached and the whole unit is jacked back up. It generally means you have to pry them back into the slots in the frame member...and that can easily tear them.
If you have already removed the tranny and left the busgings attached to the body...remove them now, and re-install them on the tranny. Make sure they are parrallel to the frame member above when you tighten the 17mm bolts. There are shims on top of each bushing. Be sure you get them back where they belong...or you will have shifting issues. There are actually 4 separate adjustments for putting the engine drivetrain back in. One on each side of the rear hanger bar for vertical, the slotted mounts in the body above that for front to rear, the shims above the tranny crossmember, side to side also checked at the rear hanger..and a final check and measurement at the tail cone bushing. Contact me when you are ready for that. This is important..and rarely done properly...but is very simple. Ray

[vwbill]

Thanks Ray! The funny thing with the main seal in the book they actually say leakage is normal. I guess they mean minimal, lol!
Do you think its better to use a local machine shop for head work or someone that does only VW head work? I bought a set of three ring sets(lol) Should I get a pair set because of the weight or one more set? I'm hopin to just hone the cylinders,lol! I dont think the gasket set came with the graphite "o"ring or the felt for the pilot bearing. Looks like it has the "O"rings for the pushrod tubes, two colors, and a lot of other "O"rings that I can't seem to think of where they go, must be other engines. I know the oil cooler seals. The kit has something that looks like four different head gaskets(aluminum or ?)or cylinder gaskets. I guess just replace what you find? Or do you need to remeasure and space accordlying? I'm working on the engine compartment cleaning and the tranny area. Do the brakes as I go forward and paint what I can. I already have so may baggies with labels and baggies on the relays and connectors for cleaning. I got a fuel pump for the heater-used so I'll do that when the motor is out and easier to get in shape. Need that in fla, lol! Thanks for the help Ray!

[raygreenwood]

oK.....aAAAAAGH...HAD TO DO THAT. For the record...cease going to autozone for parts for your VW...except for very posssibly an alternator or some brake shoes, oil, waxes ,generic stuff.....They have NOTHING, that is either correct or quality enough for what you are working on. TRUST ME.
NO. There is no leakage from the main seal. When its cold until it warms...perhaps a few drops....thats all. You will need to carefully inspect things like the rear seals when you buy them. Autozone and other chains have never even been able to locate the very important small items like the felt ring and the 0-ring . Find a good VW shop or the dealer ($) or a Beck Arnley/worldparts dealer.
There are two seals that can fit in this car/engine. The differences are subtle. The failure by installing the wrong one is not. It will trash a new clutch and possibly the whole engine...no kidding! You will find that getting clutch discs to fit a 411/412...is difficult. A good clutch rebuild shop usually has access to a large pool of parts in the clutch rebuilding business that stores will not. They almost always can find you a rebuilt disc in the $50 range. Make sure it is correct thickness...many are not. Make sure it has correct amount of contersink on the rivets...many do not, as they are not using metric material on a lot of rebuilds. Make sure you know what flywheel and disc diameter you have. There are two.
The basic rebuild friction material is poor. It causes scorching of the flywheel and pressure plate. Have your flywheel machined carefully. Both the face and the lip....measure carefully. All I can tell you is that the clutch for the type 4 is unforgiving. It is unsprung, unloads quickly and has a lot of load on it due to the gearing Lastly, do not ever throw away your old discs. They fit nothing else manufactured. They are geting hard to find. Oh...and you will need to find a new five hole washer plate to go underneath the five bolts for the crank. Ray

[raygreenwood]

Sorry...forgot to answer the gasket qestion. Ok. Is it still fuel injected? If so, make sure you got the right gasket set. It should 100% come with a flywheel o-ring. It wll be the larger o-ring, that has shiny gray powder material impregnated on it (graphite). The metal flat gaskets are not for your intakes. You should have a pair of two hole plastic looking gaskets for the FI intake manifolds, about 1/4" thick. The other O-rings are important. One goes on the oil filler neck/funnel, one goes around the distributor base, oil cooler seals of course. It should come with barrel shims and head gaskets. Unless you lap the cylinders to the heads, you will be using the head gaskets.

If you are rebuilding or honing cylinders, you should probably look around in the archives. In order to hone and re-ring, lots of cleaning and then remeasureing should be done. Its rare that re-ringing a type 4 is done. Its just not economical and not often successful. There are usually quite a few things that eed to be replaced. With the expense of parts, its usually betterto do it all than do it twice.
Yes, find a shop that does VW heads only. Getting the correct valves and measurement on the guides is usually beyond what most american shops can do.
Replacement of the stock cam and lifters is 100% reccomended. The stock ones had metalurgical defects and should not be used twice or reground without proper rehardening. There is perhaps one shop in the US that does that . If you go to them...just get their new cam and lifters and don't bother with regrinding and re hardening. They are far superior (web cam).
You should get new valve seats put in. Ask on the type 4um for head shop recommendations in your area. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, thanks for all the info!! I still need to take the throw-out and clutch off to get numbers and measurements Done! I spent the afternoon cleaning the Engine comprtm, tranny and cleaned the detached parts and painted some of them. Thirty years of dirt and grease and rust, lol! Work some more tomorrow maybe get the engine cleaned up and work my way down to the tins. Need to call the parts guys up to get what I can find. I already did the driveside CVs.
I Cant decide if I should under coat the underside of the wel areas.
That stuff doesnt dry to fast and looks like liquid tar.
Who Does anyone like for head Work or has used? I need to get those sent out and going soon! How long does it take? Thanks again! Bill