Do the 411/412 have any fire possible problems?

[vwbill]

Hey was looking on "Ebay" and there are two wagens on there one a 74 412 wagen that had a engine fire. It looked like the fire must have started on the left side since the vents on the rear left were smoked and burnt. Bill

[Vgonman]

I have seen several like this. Same story. They sit for a while, and people try to get them running, paying no attention to the old brittle fuel lines...............guess what? They break and cause a fire!

[alsehendo]

That's how I got mine burnt to a crisp in the engine bay. Burt up most of the fuel injection. I put an L-Jet from an 80 Vanagon in it and things were just fine. I did have to expend the FI wiring harness that was on the Vanagon in order to make it work in the 412.

[raygreenwood]

Yes, all fuel injected engines with a return line to the fuel tank have this same risk. If you get a fuel leak on the return side of the regulator while driving, you will have no adverse running problems because the top end of the fuel loop is still pressurized. You will drive merrily along pumping fuel all over the drivers side exhaust system. Change the lines every two years.....all of them. Only use cotton braided fuel injection line...or braided steel or tubing. The regular non-braided lines have no protection from external oil and heat. They get crispy in like...6 mos. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey, is there a easy sensor setup to test the flows or is it better to just keep the lines fresh and checked and maybe try a fire extinguisher setup of some kind? Bill

[raygreenwood]

You can buy simple magnetic flow switches and an idiot light...but its just easier to keep the lines fresh. Above all, clamp everything and use teh correct clamps and hose. Ray

[Bulley412]

Only use cotton braided fuel injection line...or braided steel or tubing. . Ray

AHHHHHHHHH! THis is one of my life long (or at least since 1982 and my first Porsche 914) pet peeves, and I am SHOCKED that Ray would be the one to perpetrate it... Okay folks, I have fuel line issues becasue I screwed up SOOOO many times, and almost burned myself up TWICE, once in a 1976 bus, once in my second 914.

Listen up...

First off, that Cotton covered stuff is NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, VW standard FI hose. Maybe it once was eons ago, (in the 1960s???) but VW long since abandoned it because, well, IT SUCKS.

Proper VW Type IV FI Line is RIBBED on the outside. It is a triple-layer hose, with a butyl-rubber core, dense nylon woven sleeve, then athick outer layer of rubber (which has fine RIBS running the length). Buy it from VW or someone you trust with your life. Better still, snatch the metal tubes from your buddy's Vanagon when he isn't looking, and decrease the rubber-hosing by 80%. Peace of mind.

While I'm on the subject, Use ONLY VW-type (or better) FI-hose clamps, NEVER the el-cheapo worm/screw clamps, which can easily be overtightened, damaging the hose. Those screw clamps are junk. get rid of them; go to the junk yard and get the VW ones if yours are gone.

And finally, never destroy the OEM "magic ring" that seals the hose to the Fuel Injector. When swapping out your hoses, simply use an exacto-knife to cut the hose (lengthwise) off the injector nipple, and you will find that the magic ring falls off. Clean the nipple, put the ring back on, and push the new (RIBBED NOT COTTON) FI hose onto the nipple untill it fully seats. Bingo. Magic.

Just TRY to pull that off.

Okay, thanks for letting me vent. Now go get ann of that leaky cotton line out of your motor box.

[raygreenwood]

Matthew....no so!. I have factory lines...braided with crimped connectors to prove it...as well as factory manual pictures of cotton braided line from the factory. The cotton braid IS factory, but only when labled "fuel injection" roller printed on the cotton. The correct rubber is not butyl...its actually in the EPR family. The ribbed lines you are speaking of are actually late (73 and 74) and were dealer replacement lines. Late in 73, the factory also went to jacketed lines between the fuel rails under the hood. This augmented burst strength....nothing else. This was a DOT directive....not a fire issue. VW was staving off the expense both going to steel braided lines....and the expense of the cotton lines. This is also why there was a shortage of the cotton lines in the mid to early 80's. No mre cars manufactured with them. The ribbed lines were just as good as the as the braided, for strength...but without the cotton braid...are also susceptable to taking a "set" early in life due to oil attack and heat combination. All of the lines broke in a common area....at the clamp...due to non-flexibility issues, when the hoses hardened. There has never been a burst pressure issue. Plainly put, anything not jacketed within an qaircooled engine...has heat and oil vapor issues. That is also why both BMW and SAAB were able to get away with nylon lines on the lower pressure versions of CIS they used. Nylon has few oiling problems within its proscribed lifespan...and few heat problems on a watercooled car. You can buy cotton braided German line in both fuel injection...and non-fuel injection. Same color...same size diameter inside and out. The difference is in the pressure rating...the cord or scrim that is cast into it, and probably the rubber compound as well....and the lableing in gold or white writing "fuel injection Germany". They are most assuredly different. Also...if you are not paying obout $4 a foot for your cotton braided line.....and its not labled fuel injection...its probably not the right stuff. Ray

[raygreenwood]

Aggggh! just reread your post! DO NOT EVER reuse an "ferrule" on an injector. The "barb" as you put it, is a single bump barb. The crimping on the hose is crimpae AFTER the barb. It is designed to compress the rubber in the hose by about 50%. If you can slide past the crimp....it is not compressing. Generally...you only think you are sliding under the crimped area. This is also the reason that after about 82....new replacement injectors no longer came from the factory all the time with a new length of hose and a crimped ferrule. With age and heat....the rubber drys...and shrinks. ALL...repeat ALL crimped ferules are doomed to leaking. If you must use them, they cost about $2 each to have installed and machine crimped at any hose shop. Or the tool is about $89 from grainger...with a bag of about 100 mixed ferrules. Yes...always use the band type fuel injection clamp...no worm type. The plus side of using fuel injection clamps...is that periodicly...you can tighten them up to take up for the shrinkage from the hose. You cannot do that with ferrules. That...by the way...is why all modern fuel injection systems went to the compression O-ring sealed fuel rail. The ferrules...guaranteed....caused more fires than anything. Ray

[metropoj]

Quite the debate here, I have something to add please ...

My cousin restores Porsches ( mostly 914's ) up here near Toronto and uses the Wurth Braided fuel line, as sold by Porsche dealers ( through VW here ), for years and years. Recently, he began noticing not only on his car, but on customers cars, that the hoses were NOT lasting very long and cracking and leaking after only a year or so whereas this NEVER happened before.

He complained to VW/Porsche/Wurth and they said that there were problems with the new manufacturing of the hose and cheaper rubber in them and suggested he go to solid rubber fuel line, no braid but still Wurth brand. This seemed to have solved the problem so far ...

Now, I don't know if anyone else has heard this or can comment on. I am only repeating what a Wurth rep, a VW rep and a Porsche rep have stated when a lot of complaints came rolling through .......

Ray, you use Wurth or another brand ??

Personally, I only use the Wurth F.I. band clamps for peace of mind ...... on every connection I can get, unless the Injector has the pre clamped end on them, then I watch them periodically .....

OH, DON'T FORGET THE GAS HEATER ON YOUR 411/412'S ! Because they are "Well" hidden, they get neglected more than the others ..... whether you use it of not, there is still a gas line running to the unit .....

[raygreenwood]

The brand I use is not wurth...that I know. But I do not know what it is. I generally get it either at a Mercedes shop in Grand prairie or at Lord of the rings here in Dallas, or sometimes at my Beck Arnley dealer. About 4 years ago, there were some substandard lines out there. The ones labled fuel injection are definately different in every way...than thosenot labled. They cost different too. In Dallas...which now boasts the secod worst ozone problem in the country...fuel lines in a sealed engine compartment that are not jacketed with something...crack very quickly. But...in general, I have had few problems.

I never use the
ring type clamps. Unless you have the correct crimper with a stop setting, how do you know how much compression you have? When the rubber starts to shrink...and it will, how do you tighten them up? Thats why I quit using them. But to the main argument...yes, there may be some better lines out there now some of the newer fuel injected cars have nice lines. But you have to be careful. When you start looking at raw hose at the hose companies....it becomes quickly apparrent, what the limitations are for most fuel lines in both heat and in chemical resistance. Its mportant to note, that the correct factory line has a differnt rubber on the outsidejacket as compared to the inside. Its at least 2 ply if its correct......But the factory used cotton braid at least through mid #73. I have still aquired complete cars over the years with all the hose and all the swaged and cripmed clamps....and all of the factory photographs show this. But I am familiar with the ribbed and black slip on woven jaketed hose as well. I had the dealer in high school install a couple for me. As for the heater line....I replaced mine with steel tubing. It has to be checked and or replaced for safety, every other winter at least....and is just too hard to get to.

[metropoj]

Thanks Ray for the insight, anyone who drives a "Real" Type IV is AOK in my books ! Talk about a challenge !

ANyways, I'd be curious to know the name of that fuel line you're using. I have to redo my D-Jet Square and rather go cloth braided but not very comfortable with Wurth right now ....

[raygreenwood]

I will find out. Fuel lines in general...as long as they are for fuel injetion should be ok. The real key here...longevity of a certain type aside, is inspection on a regular basis. I check mine every month during valve adjustment. A line going in generally not a slow process. If they are dry and cracking on the exposed ends by the clamp, or if they are hard to trim when you replace a clamp...its time. Generally, the front to back lines last about 3 years or so...no matter what brand. Its the ones in the engine compartment that get hot, go quickly. Ray

[Guest]

Its mportant to note, that the correct factory line has a differnt rubber on the outsidejacket as compared to the inside. Its at least 2 ply if its correct......But the factory used cotton braid at least through mid #73.

Again, not to be disagreeable, but if VW abandoned the use of a certain type of line in 1973 (or in 1980, when I know for a fact they DID abandon the cotton-covered hose) then I wouldn't go back to it. I understood from a VW mechanic that the cotton-covered stuff had lower burst strength, and low resistence to heat compared to the newer multi-ply nylon/rubber coated hose.

I switched out all the rubber line in my 412 motor box for the metal lines from a Vanagon, and buy the ribbed hose at the dealer for the connections. this minimizes the amount of rubber in the motorbox to about one foot total. It is about $15 for all you need to redo the entire motor, and around $45 to do all lines.

As for the ferules (or as I call them "magic rings") I'd understood from that same VW mechanic that they hadn't been 'crimped on' since the type 3's were in production; that most type 2s, all Vanagons, and many Type 4's had the slide-fit ferrule, which provided sufficient clamping to prevent release or leakage; better than the hose clamp, which was largely inaccessable.

I do agree that if your hoses are crimped onto your injectors (the ferule will show 5-7 indentations around the edges), you should replace same with VW-style clamps. If they aren't crimped, you make the call. I pretty much stick with what the dealer uses unless I find a reason to do otherwise.

Carry on!

[raygreenwood]

The vw mechanic is incorrect. ALL non "O" ring style injection couplings were crimped. Wether they have the simpler 3 indentions or 5...makes no difference. I have examples of both. While there are "wedge" type ferrules available for hose couplings, they are physically impossible to install on an injectorn systems...and have never been approved or used in any OEM injectio. They have to slip on from the injector side of the tube. There have been some ferrules that have no visible dents. Those are "swaged"...not crimped. Either way...they are not to be re-used ...ever. They start out as a flare about 1.5 times the diameter of the hose, and then are forced though a tubular die. Much like a flaring tool. Either way, they operate identically to a crimped ferrule. The late ribbed hose higher in burst strength? Most probably. But since the burst strength on the fabric hose is about 100 psi and the injection runs at 28-32....that has never been an issue, unless the DOT had an issue with it. Could you reuse a rolled coupling ferrule? Yeah...and you are risking a fire doing it. If the hose slips iin..then its not tight enough. If its tight to put in, you have no guarantee that it is all the way in and not compressing. Dealers still use fabric covered hose. Its expensive, but occasionally I buy some there. I also see some of the rubber ribbed. Depends upon whats on hand. I would not be surprised to see a VW mechanic reusing a ferrule. They would not have a new one on hand...or the tool tro crimp it with. They never have. They were only allowed to sell new sub assemblies...or replace hose and add band clamps. Same reason why you will not find a vw dealer anywhere with an FI connector crimping tool. They don't do that work. They swap out new harnesses. The ferrule story given by the VW mechanic is par for the course. They were never known (in my experience) for their prowess on D and L jet.Thats why I leaqrned to work on my own. In 1978...it was nearly impossible to find a dealership that would work on FI aircooled other than the bug.u
I do agree, that there are plenty of hoses that are available that are better. The cotton braided hose is more than adequate. The ribbed or smooth rubber lines may ave higher burst pressure...but that was never the issue. Cracking from oil and heat hardening was THE issue. Even the ribbed ones were to be installed with the oter black slip on woven jacketing. They have no more oil reristance than the rubber under the cotton braid. Thats the whole problem. In short...any FI rated hose will do. The thing is....they have to be checked once a year. The heat under the hood is too high for any non steel hose or tubing. They also have to be kept reasonably clean and have to be routed to be not under tension or rubbing...and they need to be clamped with proper clamps. Ray