Hi all, I think am gonna come out, cant hold it any longer my attraction to T4 is becoming unstoppable. I have had that secret crush on them a long time while everyone says they ugly. I love the styling, the roominess and sofistication. SO, I got this ad in the local paper for a 71, 4 dr. 411. I've restored a 68 bug, 70 FI type3 and a 74 bus. Are we talking a huge leap here? and what do I look for when I go check out the car. i.e the usual weak points, spots/ components. I am T4 clueless!!, pls any advice is welcome.
many tanks
hisham
T4 inexperienced, need buying advice
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Kirk Knighton
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:01 am
buying a type 4
Hi - well I'm like you, I love the type four, against all common opinions of the car. I have two of them and have had two previous, two 411s and two 412s. Besides the obvious things like engine wear, brakes, paint, etc., the thing to look at is a leaky master cylinder (inside under the steering wheel) and a worn-out vacuum modulator on the auto trannie. The main thing here is that getting the new parts is challenging. I've accumulated a lot of parts from ebay these past couple of years - without the internet I couldn't keep my cars on the road! Also the trigger contacts for the fuel injection could be worn; they are still available from Bosch on the web. How many miles on the car? Is it blue? Kirk in Seattle
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The 71 will have some unique interior trim parts (steering wheel etcetera). In my opinion, all of the type 4's need serious mechanical going over if they have been sitting around. Don't worry about the mechanicals when you are buying. The body must be solid. Hopefully no wrecked areas. The 4 doors are sweet cars. They have a tendency to rust under the rear fender wells down to the rear door sill. The foam inside fill with water. Look there.....but if its not ugly, welding can be done. No back door damage. Back doors for ype 4 , 4 doors are very hard to find. Tell us the condition, we'll go from there. Ray
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70sq
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 10:37 am
Well, I am still waiting for an appointment to see it, so no first hand impressions yet. However the gentelman answering the phone was the owner's (a young lady) Grandpa. He didn't know much, but he said the car is "like new", no rust at all, no accidents, no dents, original paint (dark blue of some sort, he said), interior is all there, cracks in dash, auto tranny, drivable but needs rebuild. That sums up what he said. Sounded decent to me! Only thing I know nothing about is the auto tranny, never had one of those before, but I've been told they are same as T3 autos, true? also told thatT4 autos are sloooow, which is funny since T3 autos are quicker than MTs. So, pls people clarify where lies truth.
The pointers where rust might be are well taken and when I go see the car I'll look there as well as the usual vw spots i.e floors, under battery tray.... speaking of which, where is the battery located in these things? under back seat as usual?
So, Pls keep your pointers coming so I know where to look when I see the car today or tomorrow hopfully.
thanks a mill for the help so far, I feel good about the car already, and even my wife doesn't mind!, I guess she finally gave up
peace
hisham
The pointers where rust might be are well taken and when I go see the car I'll look there as well as the usual vw spots i.e floors, under battery tray.... speaking of which, where is the battery located in these things? under back seat as usual?
So, Pls keep your pointers coming so I know where to look when I see the car today or tomorrow hopfully.
thanks a mill for the help so far, I feel good about the car already, and even my wife doesn't mind!, I guess she finally gave up
peace
hisham
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Ok...if its a 71 and has dark blue metallic, its probably a 72 with alaska blue metallic. Popular. Some notes: (1) do not be scred away by what I am telling you. Just trying to clue you in.
There is no such thing as "like new" with a 411/412. They are not simple like a bug.
Even if the car has not driven a single mile in its life...stil has "0" miles on the odometer....the front suspension is shot...totally! Truuuuuuust me on this. It will seem solid, and even drive well. You will be amazed ayt its silky smoothness. The first 250 mile weekend drive....and you will have a shimmy and an alignment problem. The rubber parts were a bit softer than necessary from the factory. The suspension arms are long and generate lots of leverage. The idler arm will be shot, the center links will be shot, the strut bushings/bearings will be shot, the radius arm bushings and centering rings will be marginal. The ball joints will most probbaly be fine....but get new boots on them soon and install a grease fitting (ask me about that later...I will run you through it). Since, you will need to have the struts out (no big deal) to accomplish grease fittings on the ball joints....you may as well change the strut bearings and struts. By the way...neither of those are made any longer...but there are was to get around that. The ball joints are rare, but if yours are solid, cleaning them, installing the new dust boots and greasing them can make them last nearly forever. The centerlink is available...but aout $125-175. I can tell you how to rebuildwhat you got...and never have to do it again. Tie rods are type 3 (almost but close eough). The idler bushing is late super beetle...but get the bronze one. Solid bronze. Look for past posts, I have posted the cross match rear shock #'s. Radius arms bushings and centering rings have never been available in my lifetime...but are easy to make even better thn factory.
The autotransmission was never really slow. It has generally one of two final drives...3.79:1 or 3.91:1 . Very nice. Yes, same as type 3. The problem was generally poor adjustment of engine fuel injection and settings on the shift points. It must be done by the book. its not too hard. Get the bentley type 3 manual (brown book) all of the auto tranmission info is straight up the same. This is not to say that the engines may not have run smooth, but generally they ran a little rich due to how "basic" the engine was adjusted. This altered the vacume set points, and made shifting slower. Lower specific power output also made the transmission seem sluggish. Its worth it to have the tranny out, separate the final drive from the case, take the case down and spend a hundred or so for new bands. Repalce the final drive bearings and adjust them. Mate the two parts back together with new fluid, filter and modulator valve...then adjust according to the book. Then get with us on proper engine tuning. This should drive well.
In short, this is not one of those cars, that just because it looks pristine, you can pump a couple hundred in to take care of what is just obviously broken, and motor along for years like a 67 bug. Its a bit more complex than that. It will break down constantly. In the front suspension, if you leave it alone....a single worn part will destroy everything it is attached to. Best to do it correctly at one time....and adjust it correctly, and it will last for decades. Its not ugly expensive. Just that you may have to fabricate a few items, or hunt carefully and be patient. its worth it. Ray
There is no such thing as "like new" with a 411/412. They are not simple like a bug.
Even if the car has not driven a single mile in its life...stil has "0" miles on the odometer....the front suspension is shot...totally! Truuuuuuust me on this. It will seem solid, and even drive well. You will be amazed ayt its silky smoothness. The first 250 mile weekend drive....and you will have a shimmy and an alignment problem. The rubber parts were a bit softer than necessary from the factory. The suspension arms are long and generate lots of leverage. The idler arm will be shot, the center links will be shot, the strut bushings/bearings will be shot, the radius arm bushings and centering rings will be marginal. The ball joints will most probbaly be fine....but get new boots on them soon and install a grease fitting (ask me about that later...I will run you through it). Since, you will need to have the struts out (no big deal) to accomplish grease fittings on the ball joints....you may as well change the strut bearings and struts. By the way...neither of those are made any longer...but there are was to get around that. The ball joints are rare, but if yours are solid, cleaning them, installing the new dust boots and greasing them can make them last nearly forever. The centerlink is available...but aout $125-175. I can tell you how to rebuildwhat you got...and never have to do it again. Tie rods are type 3 (almost but close eough). The idler bushing is late super beetle...but get the bronze one. Solid bronze. Look for past posts, I have posted the cross match rear shock #'s. Radius arms bushings and centering rings have never been available in my lifetime...but are easy to make even better thn factory.
The autotransmission was never really slow. It has generally one of two final drives...3.79:1 or 3.91:1 . Very nice. Yes, same as type 3. The problem was generally poor adjustment of engine fuel injection and settings on the shift points. It must be done by the book. its not too hard. Get the bentley type 3 manual (brown book) all of the auto tranmission info is straight up the same. This is not to say that the engines may not have run smooth, but generally they ran a little rich due to how "basic" the engine was adjusted. This altered the vacume set points, and made shifting slower. Lower specific power output also made the transmission seem sluggish. Its worth it to have the tranny out, separate the final drive from the case, take the case down and spend a hundred or so for new bands. Repalce the final drive bearings and adjust them. Mate the two parts back together with new fluid, filter and modulator valve...then adjust according to the book. Then get with us on proper engine tuning. This should drive well.
In short, this is not one of those cars, that just because it looks pristine, you can pump a couple hundred in to take care of what is just obviously broken, and motor along for years like a 67 bug. Its a bit more complex than that. It will break down constantly. In the front suspension, if you leave it alone....a single worn part will destroy everything it is attached to. Best to do it correctly at one time....and adjust it correctly, and it will last for decades. Its not ugly expensive. Just that you may have to fabricate a few items, or hunt carefully and be patient. its worth it. Ray
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Guest
WOW!!, I think am with the right crowd! I like that great wealth of info. from my experience as a project engineer, i've learned a long time ago to start worrying when people say its easy or a piece of cake, usualy, they don't understand the full depth of the issue. So am not panicked by your input, to the contrary, it makes me aware to where I stand. That tells me that this forum will be instrumental to the success of my undertaking and,..... You, sir, better not be older than 70 because I'll be tapping into your knowledge for at least the next 5 yrs! 
Second part is the cost, since I cant claim any knowledge in suspension or front end work, I'll have to have it done by my old & trusted vw mechanic. Any ball park figures to how much this amount of work would cost? and the same goes for the tranny.
Engine and FI, I can handle for the most part from my work on my 70 FI squareback and my 74 bus, unless I am missing something.
thanks
hisham
Second part is the cost, since I cant claim any knowledge in suspension or front end work, I'll have to have it done by my old & trusted vw mechanic. Any ball park figures to how much this amount of work would cost? and the same goes for the tranny.
Engine and FI, I can handle for the most part from my work on my 70 FI squareback and my 74 bus, unless I am missing something.
thanks
hisham
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The tranny should actually be little of a problem. They are generally...quite common. The basic design (they look and are almost identical) is used in a lot of models...including the bus, type 3, 4 and a handfull of audis and a few american cars. It is all Borg Warner. Most of the parts are still readily avaiable. But...these parts usually do not lurk behind the counters of simple places like pep-boys or Auto-zone. Most decent transmission shops or borg warner dealers will have all the parts. The problem with getting the trannys done, is taking them to a shop that is an expert on automatics...but just general autromatics. In a V-8 powered car, there is plenty of power to spare. Things can slip a little, leak a little internally etc......last forever....and never be noticed. On a 411/412, every poorly timed power loss is noticed by the transaxle and its valve body...becasue you have a lot less power than a big engine. If someone works on it for you, they should know what they are doing...and replace most everything that wears out and adjust it. Usally about $250 or so will buy a decent rebuilt auto section without the differential...if yours is a perfect core. If you have not realized it, the shift and transfer case is a seprate piece from the differential, with a seal between them. Only take in to a shop what they need. Do not let the differential out of your sight. Dont let people tinker with it unless necessary.
The front end: this is off the top of my head....
Ball joints when you can find them: $35-50 ea (x2)
tie rod ends $18 ea (x4)
Idler bushing ($45)
Center link ($95-175)
Control arm bushings (modified rabbit $20 ea x2)
strut cartridges (modfied audi 4000..$ 40 ea x2)
centering rings plus radius arm bushings (let me know I'll sell you some probably $25 a set of 10 pieces ..8 thin bushings 2 rings) otherwise not available that I know of.
Strut Bearings $20 ea x2
Strut bushings $18-25 ea x2
Modifications and new strut boots to use the above cartridges (let me know and I will show you how and give you the measurements. Its simple, but plan for $75-100 of machine shop/welding...it only takes a few minutes, so don't worry).
There is another mod that I will drop on you when you get there, that allows better adjustment to castor and camber. It can be made and installed for about $50. By worst case scenario, I make that about $777 for a complete ad much...much better than stock front suspension. It will probably be actually in the $550 range if you look around for a few things. Instll time is about 4-6 hours, no special tools except a pair of strut compressors (rent them). You can easily do this yourself. Ray
The front end: this is off the top of my head....
Ball joints when you can find them: $35-50 ea (x2)
tie rod ends $18 ea (x4)
Idler bushing ($45)
Center link ($95-175)
Control arm bushings (modified rabbit $20 ea x2)
strut cartridges (modfied audi 4000..$ 40 ea x2)
centering rings plus radius arm bushings (let me know I'll sell you some probably $25 a set of 10 pieces ..8 thin bushings 2 rings) otherwise not available that I know of.
Strut Bearings $20 ea x2
Strut bushings $18-25 ea x2
Modifications and new strut boots to use the above cartridges (let me know and I will show you how and give you the measurements. Its simple, but plan for $75-100 of machine shop/welding...it only takes a few minutes, so don't worry).
There is another mod that I will drop on you when you get there, that allows better adjustment to castor and camber. It can be made and installed for about $50. By worst case scenario, I make that about $777 for a complete ad much...much better than stock front suspension. It will probably be actually in the $550 range if you look around for a few things. Instll time is about 4-6 hours, no special tools except a pair of strut compressors (rent them). You can easily do this yourself. Ray
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Bulley412
Front End Package
Ray--raygreenwood wrote: The front end: this is off the top of my head....
Ball joints when you can find them: $35-50 ea (x2)
tie rod ends $18 ea (x4)
Idler bushing ($45)
Center link ($95-175)
Control arm bushings (modified rabbit $20 ea x2)
strut cartridges (modfied audi 4000..$ 40 ea x2)
centering rings plus radius arm bushings (let me know I'll sell you some probably $25 a set of 10 pieces ..8 thin bushings 2 rings) otherwise not available that I know of.
Strut Bearings $20 ea x2
Strut bushings $18-25 ea x2
Modifications and new strut boots to use the above cartridges (let me know and I will show you how and give you the measurements. Its simple, but plan for $75-100 of machine shop/welding...it only takes a few minutes, so don't worry).
There is another mod that I will drop on you when you get there, that allows better adjustment to castor and camber. It can be made and installed for about $50. By worst case scenario, I make that about $777 for a complete ad much...much better than stock front suspension. Ray
If I were to send you a check tomorrow for $900, would you create/find/mill/assemble all the aforementioned items into a shipping container, and send same to me, ready for install? Let me know. If not, let me know what price would make this possible.
Matthew Bulley
Mount Olive, NC
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Actually ...Yes...I would. I have extra strut tubes, extra center links ready to rebuild and could throw in NOS ball joints for that price as well. The questions I need from you are: Which strut bearing are you using. 412 late assymettrical bolt pattern? or early? If its early, I will send you the pattern to allow the drilling of the two extra holes. If you require the original symmetrical bolt pattern...just use what you have for bushings/bearings if they are in good shape. If you can rent basic spring compressors, to install the springs back on the struts...that is all you will have to do really. The struts will come altered correctly, with cartridges installed, boots and bumpstops...and new top spring plates (actually modified 412 ones....as well as an instruction drawing. Tie rods ends and centerlink will be in it, as well as centering rings and radius bushings for the control arms. I will also send new control arm bushings to install. The old ones will need to be pressed out. The new idler bushing will already be in a bracket, so just add the bolt and arm...and install.
This method will keep the shipping down on bring struts in from you. You will also re-use the subframe of course. You will be the first mail order resto I have done so there will be some questions and a couple of basic measurements I will need from you. Contact me on e-mail for my home #. I would be glad to work this out with you. Ray
This method will keep the shipping down on bring struts in from you. You will also re-use the subframe of course. You will be the first mail order resto I have done so there will be some questions and a couple of basic measurements I will need from you. Contact me on e-mail for my home #. I would be glad to work this out with you. Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Matthew...also we could do it by you shipping your two strut assemblies to me in rectangular tube boxes complete. Them, I could use the same cartons for return. All of the ball joints and ceneterlinks and bushings could be packed into them as well. That would be the best way. I will still provide new ball joints and tie rod ends and a rebuilt idler bracket...so shipping those parts to me would not be neccessary. Neither would shipping your control arms. I will ship it back with a simple tube and bolt tool that allows removing the control arm bushings with just a pair of wrenches. The new contol arm bushes would be installed the same way. I just cast those by the way...they are nice. This way, the subframe of the car does not have to be removed...just the struts and control arms. The rest comes off with it. Your struts would be returned assembled. If you ship yours with your steering knuckles attached...the ball joints, gaskets and grease fittings will also be installed already. This would bring your total labor time under the car to about 3 hours of install or less...and no special tools at all. Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Oh...by the way..I am working on a method of rebuilding the stock balljoints by maching out the oil center....and pressing in another, heavy duty easily purchased, common joint that fits the control arm and locks with a snap ring. It simply uses the casting for a bracket. Anyone interested? One of the reasons I have been slow to actually start offering sets for 411/412 front end...other than limited time....is that in order to make sure that the front end actualy works well, some of the parts that have to be replaced...are actually very hard to get...like ball joints,centerlinks and bronze idler bushings. So being able to rebuild them
is a necessary thing. Bear with me here. Ray
is a necessary thing. Bear with me here. Ray
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Bulley412
Front end thing
Late. My car is a June 1974 car.raygreenwood wrote:Actually ...Yes...I would. I have extra strut tubes, extra center links ready to rebuild and could throw in NOS ball joints for that price as well. The questions I need from you are: Which strut bearing are you using. 412 late assymettrical bolt pattern? or early?
cool. I'll be home (nc) this weekend, and (time permitting) we can nail down the details.raygreenwood wrote:If you can rent basic spring compressors, to install the springs back on the struts...that is all you will have to do really. The struts will come altered correctly, with cartridges installed, boots and bumpstops...and new top spring plates (actually modified 412 ones....as well as an instruction drawing.The local VW Dealer is prolly who will do the work. I have very limited time as I work in DC and live in NC. (Don't ask why).raygreenwood wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:This method will keep the shipping down on bring struts in from you. You will also re-use the subframe of course. You will be the first mail order resto I have done so there will be some questions and a couple of basic measurements I will need from you. Contact me on e-mail for my home #. I would be glad to work this out with you. Ray
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Bulley412
Front End Package
I probably can't do this way, as I need the 412 on the road 100% of the time. My back-up vehicle is a 1982 Westfalia, which I keep covered/waxed/in the barn for camping. I don't want to put it in DC traffic, or the crappy weather we are having on the east coast.raygreenwood wrote:Matthew...also we could do it by you shipping your two strut assemblies to me in rectangular tube boxes complete.
However, I will return my "cores" to you, if that is helpful for the next guy. I think all of my stuff is in perfect condition (only 40k on it) although my struts are shot. let me know whatever measurements you need. Or I can take/send JPEGs.