i have found a sweet 71 411. i want a custom look. can it be lowered? i see threads for some strut idea to level. but can you drop it really low? i know it will probally change alot of things in geometry but can it be done? i want this car but only if i can drop it.
please hel
neil
lower,slammed, dropped
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
I suppose you could drop anything...but there will be some problems with this car to drop it. Lets see....First...how far do you want to drop it?
The from strut tubes can be cut and rethreaded. For stock restoration...and much better than factory handling, I use KYB GR-2 cartridges from a Audi 4000-s. But...I have to either EXTEND the tubes, or machine an extender stub. If you can get away with say a lowering of 2" or so, you can trim the strut tubes, rethread the tops and use the audi cartridges just like normal. In doing this...you MUST...grind loose the lower spring perch and move it down the exact amount that you lowered the top. There will need to be a minor mod to the subframe, so you can increase the Castor for the very best handling. Thats optional. Let me know if you need that and I'll explain it.
DO NOT cut the front springs. When you lower the front end...it does not get any lighter. Short springs will wreck this car. It has no pan. Its full unibody. The front springs on the 411/412 were superb. The strut valving simply left a lot to be desired. The Audi valving is excellent. It will handle flat and fun...with no ugly bumps.
Because of the stress this may impose....and the fact that the front suspension on ALL type 4's is now shot...period. You need to do all of it. idler arm bushings (bronze) radius arm bushings (urethane), centering rings (I'll tell you how to make them), center link....yours is guaranteed dead or will be, tie rod ends (type and type 3 parts)...ball joints...if you can locate them, strut bushings and bearings (use late model fox drill the extra hole ..its worth it)
The rear will be a problem. The shocks on the stock rear are tough. Very strong. They had a ot lof leverage on them because of the trailing arm length. What you will use thats shorter...I don't know. Type 3 lowering shocks are not enough. the rear end of his car is considerably heavier...not to mention the trailing arm, length. But...cut out the upper mount plate...and use a piece of pipe and a plate welded on, to extend it upward and just use the stock shocks. They are available..check some of my past posts for info and part #'s. I would measure the compressed height of the stock spring...take it to a spring shop...and have them measure the tension at that compression. Ask them to provide a spring with the same progressiveness and the same tension at a 2" shorter height...or whatever you are lowering to.
All of that being said...what model of 411 is this? 2 door, 4 door, wagon?
Here is a large problem: Where are you going to get the extra travel room under the fenders? You may have to go to a smaller diameter wheel. There is no room to ding things out or in. Very thin under there.
Its also my personnal request...that you try hard not to screw this car up. They do not grow on trees. I lowered my front end to level with the rear...then went to 205-55-15's . That lowered it almost an inch all around. It will easily out handle most watercooled VW's. It has low pressure gas in front...high pressure in back. The valving is about a +3 better than factory. It handles flat and sticky. All the bushings are urethane. It looks bad A*s enough that way. Ray
The from strut tubes can be cut and rethreaded. For stock restoration...and much better than factory handling, I use KYB GR-2 cartridges from a Audi 4000-s. But...I have to either EXTEND the tubes, or machine an extender stub. If you can get away with say a lowering of 2" or so, you can trim the strut tubes, rethread the tops and use the audi cartridges just like normal. In doing this...you MUST...grind loose the lower spring perch and move it down the exact amount that you lowered the top. There will need to be a minor mod to the subframe, so you can increase the Castor for the very best handling. Thats optional. Let me know if you need that and I'll explain it.
DO NOT cut the front springs. When you lower the front end...it does not get any lighter. Short springs will wreck this car. It has no pan. Its full unibody. The front springs on the 411/412 were superb. The strut valving simply left a lot to be desired. The Audi valving is excellent. It will handle flat and fun...with no ugly bumps.
Because of the stress this may impose....and the fact that the front suspension on ALL type 4's is now shot...period. You need to do all of it. idler arm bushings (bronze) radius arm bushings (urethane), centering rings (I'll tell you how to make them), center link....yours is guaranteed dead or will be, tie rod ends (type and type 3 parts)...ball joints...if you can locate them, strut bushings and bearings (use late model fox drill the extra hole ..its worth it)
The rear will be a problem. The shocks on the stock rear are tough. Very strong. They had a ot lof leverage on them because of the trailing arm length. What you will use thats shorter...I don't know. Type 3 lowering shocks are not enough. the rear end of his car is considerably heavier...not to mention the trailing arm, length. But...cut out the upper mount plate...and use a piece of pipe and a plate welded on, to extend it upward and just use the stock shocks. They are available..check some of my past posts for info and part #'s. I would measure the compressed height of the stock spring...take it to a spring shop...and have them measure the tension at that compression. Ask them to provide a spring with the same progressiveness and the same tension at a 2" shorter height...or whatever you are lowering to.
All of that being said...what model of 411 is this? 2 door, 4 door, wagon?
Here is a large problem: Where are you going to get the extra travel room under the fenders? You may have to go to a smaller diameter wheel. There is no room to ding things out or in. Very thin under there.
Its also my personnal request...that you try hard not to screw this car up. They do not grow on trees. I lowered my front end to level with the rear...then went to 205-55-15's . That lowered it almost an inch all around. It will easily out handle most watercooled VW's. It has low pressure gas in front...high pressure in back. The valving is about a +3 better than factory. It handles flat and sticky. All the bushings are urethane. It looks bad A*s enough that way. Ray
-
kenfyoozed387
ray, do you have a site with your pics of your car? i would like to drop it about 2-3 inches. i do share your thoughts of not messing up this car. i know its a rare one. i want a coustom ride. i think i may just try to find a type 3. they seem easier to lower front and back. i can get this car real cheap. it has 93000 original miles with all paperwork. it just needs brakes and the vent hoses in the engine replaced. brody is 99% straight. the gentleman said i could have it for 800.00 sounds like a nice deal. could i buy it and resell to make a little cash? i would like to see this ride one the road. i would love to have it but i do want a lowered ride. what should i do?
neil
neil
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Thats a pretty good deal. The 71 had a few different trim pieces. The milage may be low...but everything on the suspension will be shot...guaranteed. No I don't have a site. I'll try to get some basic digital pics of it week after next. I am going out of tiwn for a week. Don't be frightened...its primer...and awaiting my new engine before it goes to the paint shop....but shes's straight as an arrow..and every last nut and bolt under the skin is new.
These are fabulous cars. Much nicer and even better handling when tuned ot than a type 3. It is designed for high speed highway use. I'm not sure how well it would drive after lowering that much, but if done right, it should do ok. Is it 4 speed or Auto? Ray
These are fabulous cars. Much nicer and even better handling when tuned ot than a type 3. It is designed for high speed highway use. I'm not sure how well it would drive after lowering that much, but if done right, it should do ok. Is it 4 speed or Auto? Ray
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Oh meant to ask...is the lowering you want for looks or handling? Lowering on the 411 other than leveling front to rear and the inch or so from lower profile tires, is totally unnecessary for hadling. The revalved shocks, the wide stance and the good rubber and bushings will easily outhandle anything aircooled (other than the porshes) and a lot of stock watercooled. The type 3...as good as it can handle...will get left in the dust in comparison. Ray
-
kenfyoozed387
the lowering is just for looks. the one i saw might have been a bit higher with larger tires and the rear was low with flat tires. i may not have seen what i saw.
how low is yours? i want it to look bad a$$. i like the pics of the one with the wood grain from oldbugs.com. have you seen it? i know it has air bags but with the bags ar full height thats what i want mine to look like. if you havent seen it , ill tey to post the site.
what size tire do you run? does it look sweet?
i will be using it for a daily driver so nothing fancy for me. its killing me not to be able to get this car.
i dont want to lower the rear as ill be pulling a small apache tent camper of less than 500lbs.
i just hate the space between the tire and the fender. i would like a little rake and to close that gap.
what do you suggest?
neil
how low is yours? i want it to look bad a$$. i like the pics of the one with the wood grain from oldbugs.com. have you seen it? i know it has air bags but with the bags ar full height thats what i want mine to look like. if you havent seen it , ill tey to post the site.
what size tire do you run? does it look sweet?
i will be using it for a daily driver so nothing fancy for me. its killing me not to be able to get this car.
i dont want to lower the rear as ill be pulling a small apache tent camper of less than 500lbs.
i just hate the space between the tire and the fender. i would like a little rake and to close that gap.
what do you suggest?
neil
-
knfyoozed387
-
Fritz K.
hello,kenfyoozed387 wrote: i think i may just try to find a type 3. they seem easier to lower front and back.
type 3´s are pretty easy to lower. but like the type 4, lowering them to the "bad a$$" look will also screw up a type 3 in short time. and it does not improve handling IMHO.
remember, they also do NOT grow on trees ....
best regards
Fritz
vwfritz @ gmx.de
-
tuna
- Posts: 2531
- Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 12:01 am
Ray, are you interested in a page on my site about your car? I'd like to showcase a regularly driven Type 4. Round up the photos, put together some facts, and I will write the page and post it.raygreenwood wrote:No I don't have a site. I'll try to get some basic digital pics of it week after next.
Tuna
--
Tom's Type 4 Corner
http://www.tunacan.net/t4corner/
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Cool...it will not be driving again until December though. I had to promise myself that I would not drive it on a regular basis even when the engine gets in...until it hits the paint shop and all the interior is back in. I spent so long getting the suspension and fuel injection tuning right....and a few months before it was scheduled to the shop for paint....I blew the engine....oil pump nut took a holiday to the cam gear. It sidetracked my funds and effort. But it won't be long....
As for the superbeetle struts...no. They are much different at the ball joint and steering knuckle area. Air bags could be of use in the rear...but will make it dangerous to drive...in the front end.
A lot of what you are seeing with the space in the wheel wells is in the front end. The front trunk on these vehicles is huge. It wasdesigned nose high, to ride level with a full trunk. When you put gas strut cartridges on it, that no longer matters, so I lowered the front end during the process, about an inch (actually right at 3/4-7/8"). Its level with the rear. The rear is actually pretty low already from the factory..and looks lower still when its level. viewd from the side, the wheel wells are about 3/4" above the tire tops. Of course, right now....the rear is high. No engine in it.
The problem with handling from the factory, is that these cars had a hair over 1* of castor built in. They need about 3*. Then they are rock solid in the wind. I have squeezed 2* out of mine by lowering the front end. The 412 has about 5* more static castor built into the spindles than the 412. Its and easy swap..and you get better calipers and rotors when you do it. But you need the control arms, knuckles and calipers from a 412.
I have a way to add a really simple castor adjustment in...but it requires a small bit of machine work and a little welding. The standard castor adjustment simply allows side to side balancing of the castor. This would work with that.
If you lower the car...like I think you want to lower it, you will eed at least 3 degrees castor. You will also possibly start putting a strain onthe ball-joints as they try to work within that increased angle. But yes...it can be done. Think about this though...certain parts like balljoints and center links and strut bearings will wear quickly on a lowered 411. They are not light cars (about 2425 lbs for the 4 door, 2381 for the 2 door and 2469 for the wagon).
At this time...you may be able to locate some of those parts...and I can tell you how to rebuild some of them. But...they have not been manufactured in over 20 years, they fit nothing else....and they will not be found in 3-5 years. I can tell you how to modify balljoints to last until we are all dead...in a lightly modified car....bot probably not a lowered one. Just some thoughts. Ray
As for the superbeetle struts...no. They are much different at the ball joint and steering knuckle area. Air bags could be of use in the rear...but will make it dangerous to drive...in the front end.
A lot of what you are seeing with the space in the wheel wells is in the front end. The front trunk on these vehicles is huge. It wasdesigned nose high, to ride level with a full trunk. When you put gas strut cartridges on it, that no longer matters, so I lowered the front end during the process, about an inch (actually right at 3/4-7/8"). Its level with the rear. The rear is actually pretty low already from the factory..and looks lower still when its level. viewd from the side, the wheel wells are about 3/4" above the tire tops. Of course, right now....the rear is high. No engine in it.
The problem with handling from the factory, is that these cars had a hair over 1* of castor built in. They need about 3*. Then they are rock solid in the wind. I have squeezed 2* out of mine by lowering the front end. The 412 has about 5* more static castor built into the spindles than the 412. Its and easy swap..and you get better calipers and rotors when you do it. But you need the control arms, knuckles and calipers from a 412.
I have a way to add a really simple castor adjustment in...but it requires a small bit of machine work and a little welding. The standard castor adjustment simply allows side to side balancing of the castor. This would work with that.
If you lower the car...like I think you want to lower it, you will eed at least 3 degrees castor. You will also possibly start putting a strain onthe ball-joints as they try to work within that increased angle. But yes...it can be done. Think about this though...certain parts like balljoints and center links and strut bearings will wear quickly on a lowered 411. They are not light cars (about 2425 lbs for the 4 door, 2381 for the 2 door and 2469 for the wagon).
At this time...you may be able to locate some of those parts...and I can tell you how to rebuild some of them. But...they have not been manufactured in over 20 years, they fit nothing else....and they will not be found in 3-5 years. I can tell you how to modify balljoints to last until we are all dead...in a lightly modified car....bot probably not a lowered one. Just some thoughts. Ray
-
kefyoozed387
ok, well heres another idea. how close is a SB front end to a 411. could all of the components be swapped. as in having totally SB front end in with al the control arms and struts?
i know the 411 is heavyer but couldnt a stronger spring or cartridge be added to the mix?
the reason i ask is as you know i want to lower it, but not finding the parts i need also scare me. wha if i cant find any ball joints or other parts i need i rebuild the front, as you sayit will need it.
ray, you say you droped yours 3/4-7/8. how much harder to go fr a full 2".
what about gti diesel springs? whats up with this?
i have a 71 SB parts car. im goning t go out and tke a lok at it.
is there a site where i can see the front end of an 411
neil
i know the 411 is heavyer but couldnt a stronger spring or cartridge be added to the mix?
the reason i ask is as you know i want to lower it, but not finding the parts i need also scare me. wha if i cant find any ball joints or other parts i need i rebuild the front, as you sayit will need it.
ray, you say you droped yours 3/4-7/8. how much harder to go fr a full 2".
what about gti diesel springs? whats up with this?
i have a 71 SB parts car. im goning t go out and tke a lok at it.
is there a site where i can see the front end of an 411
neil
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The superbeetle from suspension is totally different. It will not work. As I noted in the first post, using the Audi strut cartridges, which are shorter by a hair over 2 inches, and trimming the strut housing down...will work great. But after trimming the strut housing to fit,you will then need to lower the bottom spring seat to maintain the same level of spring compression. That would work great. Yes..some have used other springs. I bet they are not driving much now.
The front end of this car is an anomaly. The control arms mount in the center of the subframe. That means that they are hugely long. The leverage generated on the suspension bushings, springs and other parts is very large. The springs this car came with were very well designed. They are also very progressive in nature to deal with the overly long strut design and the long control arms. If you screw with the springs...you will be sorry.
If you were willing to attempt to graft superbeetle suspension to a 411...modifying the strut tubes will be childs play in comparison. Like 2 hours each with a gringing wheel and a single bead of weld. 30 minutes for rthreading the tube in a machine shop.
To help illustrate the leverage generated by the suspension on this car...the rear end of mine 5 years ago had a pair of rancho 9000 5 way adjustable shocks on it. They were speced for the rear of a ford f-150 truck. The leverage killed them dead in a month. The cross match shock for the rear is actually identical to the front of a ford econoline van with a V-8 . Thats a damn stiffly valved shock. I went through about 100 differnt strut cartridges in wrecking yards over two years..with a cutter...inspecting valving. The audi struts are superb...but only in low pressure gas. The high pressure GR-2 struts....destroyed both ball joints in a week!!!!!. If you do this right....save for a little needed castor and the aerodynamics that a lowered 411 will generate (which may not be geat)...this should drive and last like factory. Just don't start chopping.
I am in the middle of trade show season right now. By the end of september (sorry is was supposed to be the end of July...its been busy)....I should have radius arm bushings, center link repair kits available and printed directions to replace control arm bushing, strut bearings, tie rod ends with existing crossmatch parts....and mods for good ball joints...that need grease fittings and dust seals to make thm last. Ray
The front end of this car is an anomaly. The control arms mount in the center of the subframe. That means that they are hugely long. The leverage generated on the suspension bushings, springs and other parts is very large. The springs this car came with were very well designed. They are also very progressive in nature to deal with the overly long strut design and the long control arms. If you screw with the springs...you will be sorry.
If you were willing to attempt to graft superbeetle suspension to a 411...modifying the strut tubes will be childs play in comparison. Like 2 hours each with a gringing wheel and a single bead of weld. 30 minutes for rthreading the tube in a machine shop.
To help illustrate the leverage generated by the suspension on this car...the rear end of mine 5 years ago had a pair of rancho 9000 5 way adjustable shocks on it. They were speced for the rear of a ford f-150 truck. The leverage killed them dead in a month. The cross match shock for the rear is actually identical to the front of a ford econoline van with a V-8 . Thats a damn stiffly valved shock. I went through about 100 differnt strut cartridges in wrecking yards over two years..with a cutter...inspecting valving. The audi struts are superb...but only in low pressure gas. The high pressure GR-2 struts....destroyed both ball joints in a week!!!!!. If you do this right....save for a little needed castor and the aerodynamics that a lowered 411 will generate (which may not be geat)...this should drive and last like factory. Just don't start chopping.
I am in the middle of trade show season right now. By the end of september (sorry is was supposed to be the end of July...its been busy)....I should have radius arm bushings, center link repair kits available and printed directions to replace control arm bushing, strut bearings, tie rod ends with existing crossmatch parts....and mods for good ball joints...that need grease fittings and dust seals to make thm last. Ray
-
kenyoozed387
ok . im sorry for not understanding do quickly. these stuts and such are new to me. i dont really understand how they work. but i do know that Ray sure seems to know.
so let me get this straight. i can, lower the front 2 inches with just modifing the strut cartridges?
is this correct. if so thats wat i want. just enough to give a little rake to the car. wheels and tires can make the rest that i want.
thanks for all your help. im getting closer every second to become a new owner.
neil
so let me get this straight. i can, lower the front 2 inches with just modifing the strut cartridges?
is this correct. if so thats wat i want. just enough to give a little rake to the car. wheels and tires can make the rest that i want.
thanks for all your help. im getting closer every second to become a new owner.
neil
-
kenfyoozed387
-
kenfyozed387