FINALLY, found a 2 door 73 412

[DeathBus]

Found a 2 door, well it is sitting at a dealership down the road from where it has been parked for several years, I went by and looked at it yesterday, here is it's condition.

Blue Metallic paint - flaking BADLY over the whole car
Surface rust on 1/4 of the roof
NO RUST on the rest of the body
Carpet is in good shape
Driver's seat torn on the upright
back seat in GREAT condition
No Air but the Eberspacher is there
2 flat tires on the right
rims are rusted
they have not cranked it
no engine compartment seal
clutch goes to floor and does not return
tranny goes into all gears
trunk is good, comes with original spare and tools

I asked them how much they wanted and they said $750 I told them $300 and she said "we have more than that in it"

I gave her my name and number and told her if they want to sell it let me know. Got home and she called me and said she could go down to $550. Im thinking I could get her down to 400. Anyone have any thoughts?

[ecdez]

I'd definately try. If they don't bite, let them simmer for a few days while you evaluate how much it is worth to you. If they still don't call, and you're willing to come up a little, call them and offer them a little more.

You can always try to point out whats wrong, and how hard it will be to find the parts. I would probaby offer a max of $500. If they're willing to sell it for $550 than certainly they should be able to come down $50.

After all, I'm sure there is a line around the block full of people waiting to buy the car .

[vwbill]

Hey, too bad you werent in CA! There is a blue two door 74 though on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... MEBWA%3AIT . Looks like the same kinda deal you're lookin at though. Good Luck! Bill

[Guest]

That's a nice lookin one. I think if I was in Ca. I would definately be goin' for that one.

[raygreenwood]

Like the type 3's before them...these cars are going to get expensive sooner or later. If the body is straight....and no rust, and all the glass is in it..and all the parts are on it....and the trany is intact, $550 for a 2 door 4 speed is a good deal. Bear in mind before you start this project. You will need about $500+ to redo the interior nicely. You will need about $450-550 for the front and rear suspension...to do it right. You will need about $250 to re-do all the brakes....add another $200 for the clutch hydralics in the long run. You will need about $200 to make the tranny indestructable enough to drive long distance..or else its days are numbered. Then gaskets. Either get them from the guy in Arkansas or I have a method I can tell you about that has great results...but is more inital work. This is without paint....knick-nacks and the engine. You can easily dump 3-4K into this car before the paint and engine. Its worth every penny in my opinion, but just letting you know, there are no short-cuts or cheap methods with these cars. Ray

[Guest]

That's a 73 not a 74. Chrome bumpers are anyway.

[raygreenwood]

Yup...thats a 73. The same color as mine. It looks like its sister. L-96M marathon blue metallic. Its not rust free. The rear hood is shot...unless you are very skilled as a welder. See the stain in the center? Thats a rust through.
Other places where there is always rust are the rear rocker panels immediately in front of the rear fender openings, and right above them. All of these area had foam. Yes they can be fixed.
Other things to note when buying these cars so you will not be heart-broken by the effort involved with them. The wheels on 100% of these are shot. All VW's for that matter....and most cars....if the car has not moved in several years, these rims get flat spots. The type 4 and super beetle suspensions are extremely sensitive to harmonics and flat spots. These cars will run like a chuck wagon no matter what you pour into the suspension. Add $225 for a new set of chromies (basic) 5.5" @ around $45 ea.

All of these will need new brake lines all around, rebuilt of new calipers, new rotors, bearings.etc.

These cars ride and handle like no other ACVW ever built. But in order to do it, they don't respond well to "over-economizing". This is not the type of VW to buy for $500 and drive around for years just holding it together with shoestring and peanuts like most bugs. Surprisingly...many of them can be aquired and driven like mad with nothing done. B ut the time sitting still is what did the damage. Things corrode, rubber gets stiff. Usually people buy one in good shape...clean it up, put in a new engine, a few brake parts...and maybe new shocks. They rarely do anything else...because they just can't see that anything else "looks" bad at all. They get in ...drive and love it. Usully the first 200+ mile trip changes something. They pick up shimmies, rattles and electrical faults that start piling up like mad. Thats where it starts. The type 4's were both complex and complicated in comparison to types 1,2,3.
My advice is to have fun with ut...collect parts to do entire sub-assemblies. Interior...all at once. Engine and FI all at once. If the tranny comes out for a clutch....go through it. Do ALL of the front suspension at once...even if it has to sit for a while. Do all of the rear at once.

Other than he friendly warnings...welcome to type 4-dom Ray

[DeathBus]

Dang Ray........

[ecdez]

This is not the type of VW to buy for $500 and drive around for years just holding it together with shoestring and peanuts like most bugs.

That's too funny. I've done that before, except I prefer cashews.

[raygreenwood]

Dang...sorry. I was afraid that was going to happen. It kept telling me that it couldn't post cause the server was busy. I knew it was lying to me. Ray

[DeathBus]

Dang...sorry. I was afraid that was going to happen. It kept telling me that it couldn't post cause the server was busy. I knew it was lying to me. Ray

no problem, ive done the same thing before.

I AM thinking real hard about this purchase, I currently have a van down stripped and doing body work, my 4 door 412 is in line for the next extensive work (paint and body).

So do I really need another project? I would not even think about it unless it was a 2 door 412. I already have 3 ACVW...... decisions decisions

[raygreenwood]

Do not bother with any of the paint or bodywork on a type 4 (except to stop or prevent rust).....until all the mechanicals are done. Trust me....there are so many things that you will have a hard time ...or at least will take a long time to get a hold of. There is always the possibility during the restoration of type 4's...that there is something you will not be able to get that will keep you from either driving it without destroying other impossible to get parts...or keep you from driving it at all. At that point...having invested in paint and body would be a waste. I have been there. At best...seal the leaks...use OSPHO on the rust.....prime it if necessary, and do the suspension and tranny first. Then teh engine , then the intereior, then the gaskets and body. Ray

[DeathBus]

Do not bother with any of the paint or bodywork on a type 4 (except to stop or prevent rust).....until all the mechanicals are done. Trust me....there are so many things that you will have a hard time ...or at least will take a long time to get a hold of. There is always the possibility during the restoration of type 4's...that there is something you will not be able to get that will keep you from either driving it without destroying other impossible to get parts...or keep you from driving it at all. At that point...having invested in paint and body would be a waste. I have been there. At best...seal the leaks...use OSPHO on the rust.....prime it if necessary, and do the suspension and tranny first. Then teh engine , then the intereior, then the gaskets and body. Ray

Well the 4 door is no problem, my local yard has 4 or 5 cars with tranny's in them, it's the 2 door tranny I am worried about.

[raygreenwood]

Thers a quick way to asses the type 4 , s speed trannys condition. Ther are only a couple of parts that wil destroy it. Thes parts will eventually destroy ALL of them.
Take the plate of the bottom. Look at the counter shaft gear. It has four gears on it. The smallest toward the tail....is 4th. Look carefully at the "v" grooves between the teeth. Is there any "spalling"? Spalling is surface wear. It looks like the surface of a bearing that has metal worn out of it from driving without grease. If so....start looking for another box. Use this one for parts...throw nothing away.

The problem that causes this "spalling" MUST be repaired on ALL type 4 trannys...good or bad. Its not a lubrication issue...really. What it is, is a combination of 2 things. (1) the bearings on the countershaft are shot...and have destroyed the shaft. (2) the thrust plates on the counter shaft are shot...or are geting thin.

This is easier to fix than you think. When you pull the tail housing of the tranny, you will immediately see the end of the counter shaft. Get a metric bolt, thread it in...and pull the shaft out. With the plate off the trannt...and the reverse cross shat removed...you can pull the counter cluster right out. The shaft is case hardened 18mm. What happens...is that poor oil flow in the system (only one oil hole in the counter shaft) starves the bearings. They trash the shaft. They also trash the bore in the end of the counter gear that they ride in.
Go to any large bearing supply. Buy a 1 meter length of hardend 18mm shaft. Take it to the machine shop. They can make you a new shaft for a further $60. Its a simple straight shaft, with a 19mm section at the end..ground or turned to 15mm to leave a step. Measure your case exactly. You want only enough intereference fit on teh case to keep the shaft from rotating....maybe .002" at best.
Now...new beraings can be gotten for this area...no problem. bout $40 ea. But...since the area in the end of the gear they ride in is no longer smooth...they will die quick. Have the bearing dealer source you an 18mm id needle bearing...with its own outer shell race. It looks a lot like a big cl;utch pilot bearing. The only one available will be a couple mm shorter than what came in the tranny. I will find the part #'s I used as sooon as I can. You may need to polish the bore in the gear to get it smooth enough to press the bearing in each end.
The other problem to solve is the oiling. Have the single oil hole enlarged by about .030" by a machinist with a good drill press. Then...at each end of the gear where the gear rides against the bronze flat thrust washers, use the file to make a radial groove in the polished surface for oil to flow. Then re-polish the surface. We want oil to go into the oil hole in the center of the gear..and have an exit at the ends so it can flow through.

The next biggest problem is the spyder gears inthe differential. The shims behind them wear out. If spalling has not started in the spyder gears...you are in great luck. Simply replace the shims behind them with type 1 parts, then make sure the spacer ring at the outer end of the stub shaft is replaced. The wear of these two parts allows the teedth to penetrate to deeply...causing the teeth to destroy themselves.

Generally, you should replace the differentiual and pinion bearings and readjust everything. They6 are still available. The rest of the needle bearing rarely wear at all. Only the first and second gearing synchro hubs...and not the synchro rings themsleves..wear. I am looking into having a few nitrided to see if that can bring the surface back up a thjousanthd or so. Ray

[ecdez]

Ray, your knowledge about these cars never ceases to amaze me. You probably even work on these things in your dreams don't you.