idler arm bushing and other front end parts

[Jan Peter de geus]

Hi Ray,
I bought an idler arm bushing at the VW dealer, #411 417 325, and it turns out to be metal and rubber, not solid bronze as you are talking about. Do you know whether or not the solid version has a different number? Were they originally sold/used by VW or were they aftermarket parts? And do you know sources for these solid bushings?
I am aware that you are packing your stuff for an extended period of time, but, before you go, I'd like to ask a couple of things.
Do you have the exact measurements, preferably in millimeters, for the damping rings (I believe you call them donuts) and the centering ring for the radius arm? What kind of materials are these parts made of? I could try to have them made here locally, although I do not have the slightest idea where, yet. Or do you happen to have these radius arm bushings and centering rings already made in some quantity so you can sell/send me a set?
I assume the parts to rebuild the center link will have to wait for another couple of months, so, in the mean time I would like to try to buy a new centerlink. Do you happen to know where I can? It has to be a company that is willing to ship to the EU and preferably via a web-shop.
Furthermore, you have once written that you have modifications to improve castor and camber adjustments. What do they consist of? Can I make them myself?
Thanks for your patience to read through this long list of questions and for your advise, Jan Peter

[vwbill]

Hi Jan,
I got the same Idler arm bushing from Street and Sand Toys here. It looks like roll steel tube with cross hetches going around it and a rubber center.
Hey you might try TRW direct to find the center link Ray talks about, the DS858; The California number is 310-518-2050 or 800-275-2377. The New Jersey number is 973-257-0491 hope this helps! I'm sure Ray will be more help!! I hope Ray isnt leaving the forum! I would be totally lost!
Good Luck, Bill

p.s. Did you check VW there for those donuts bushing? I was going to check but I dont have any numbers.

[raygreenwood]

Nope...Not leaving the forum, though things may get Hectic. I go to the Philippines 2nd week of may.
Peter, I ill have radius arm busing measurements for you by sunday.
You can make very good ones your self quite easily. The easiest way to get this material....is to go to a screen printing supply house. Ask them to let you buy about 1/2 meter of Screen printing squeegee rubber. Ask for 60 to 65 duro ONLY. Nothing harder than that. It will be Urethane. Standard squeegee rubber blade of 44mm x10mm is easy to get. It cots about $2 per inch.
Next...measure the part of the rod that the do-nuts ride on. It is close to 19mm. Locate a bi-metal hole saw with removable mandrel at the hardware store. Get a 19mm bit and..I think its about 40-42mm OD. It just fits on the rubber strip. Use a drill press....not a hand drill. take the squeegee rubber and glue it to a block of wood. With a compass, mark the center point and periphery. Use the 40mm hole saw to SLOWLY cut the periphery first. Use a small amount of oil. Then, drill the center. You will need two of these for each of the factory stock bushings. 8 total. These work fabulously...and last forever.
There is another part that is usually missing on these cars. It is called th centering ring. It is a plastic grommet that goes underneath the donuts...to keep the rod from wearing on the mounting ear. It is usually wrong.
Go to a plastic supply and get some thin delrin tube. They make it generally right at 19mm. You may need to slightly heat it to slip it on the end of the rod. The donuts then slip over that. You may have to slightly clearance the hole in the mounting ear. So...you will be replacing the grommet with a plastic tube that does the same thing...keep metal to metal contact away. You will need a seriuosly strong flat forged washer for the back.

In a pinch, you can also get natural black, 44mmx10mm squeegee rubber. It is generally 50 durometer. If you use anything harder than 60 durometer for these donuts, they will be so stiff and inflexible at cold temperetaures that they can crack the mounting ear.

I will see if I have a part # for that bronze bushing. I do know that they only came on the last two years of super beetle. Looking at the rubber and steel one, it is very easy to have one made. Ray

[Jan Peter de geus]

Thanks for the information, Bill and Ray.
I will sure give TRW a call. I will try to get the materials for the radius arm and once I have taken it apart and have been able to visualise the layout I am sure your instructions will become crystal clear. It's good to know that you will bear with us via the forum. Good luck in the Philippines Ray. I may try VW for the donuts but I don't think I'll have a chance. The ETKA (parts locating database that replaced the microfiches) is scaringly empty for the type 4 nowadays. I do have an old microfiche, though, and when I can get hold of a reader I will see if there is a number there for the donuts. If there is, I'll post it. Jan Peter

[Single 60]

Is the tecnical name for this part Track Control Arm if it is the part # of dougnuts are 411 407 127.

Terry

[raygreenwood]

That part has been non-existanet on this continent since about 1980. I searched forever. The stock ones are a bit soft anyway. Trust me...you can make better ones in about 20 minutes. I will dig my books out tonite and see if I have the measurements for the do-nuts. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Terry, I think the track control arm is the arm that goes over to the strut and where the ball joint connects. The front axle carrier is that part that mounts to the body and the track control arm attaches to. I thought the doughnut things were the rubber bushings in the carrier but Ray could be talking about the bushing on the end of the side arm coming off the track control arm? Is the part number you referenced the bushing where the control arm attaches to the carrier? That would be nice to replace those too. I thought maybe those were fused in the control arms?
Thanks for all the help Guys, Bill

[raygreenwood]

To help us get terminolgy straight....the lateral arm that attaches to the bottom of the ball joint is the control arm. The round bar that runs diagonally from the ball joint to the end of the "T" on the sub frame is teh radius arm. The donuts are at the end of that. Under the do-nuts...are the centering rings. The control arm bushings which have a bonded rubber bushing should also be replaced. Ray

[raygreenwood]

To help us get terminolgy straight....the lateral arm that attaches to the bottom of the ball joint is the control arm. The round bar that runs diagonally from the ball joint to the end of the "T" on the sub frame is teh radius arm. The donuts are at the end of that. Under the do-nuts...are the centering rings. The control arm bushings which have a bonded rubber bushing should also be replaced. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, is the dampering ring(2) on the round rod coming off the control arm a alignment point? How do they adjust the caster and camber? Do they add shems under the strut top nut? Do they add spacers to the dampering ring that comes off the control arm? So what about the front axle carrier's three rubber dampering ring points? Also the bushing on the control arm has two bushings one at the pivot at the axle carrier and one where the round rod comes off the control arm. Are they both replaceable? Is the part number Terry listed the one that attaches to the axle carrier(Big"T" thing)? Thanks again for all the help!
Bill

[raygreenwood]

Castor is moveable ...but not adjustable. If you take the "T" piece loose...and you should to get everything clean, you will notice that the bolt on the bottom of the T at the rear, screws into a captive slotted nut in the body, that slides longitudinally. The ones at the front on each end of the T...slide horizontally. You can never get any more castor than the car was built to have. But...you can balance it from side to side. The method is to loosen all three carrier bolts and push/pry the front of the T piece from one side to the other to get them even. It pivots around the rear bolt...moving the "rake" of the strut front to back. Unfortunately, it also changes the camber. Some European vehicles have factory installed eccentric bolts identical to the rear trailing arms....and have slotted holes at the control arm bushings. I have done that to mine. It takes about an hour with a scribe and a die-grinder...to install camber adjusting eccentric bolts.

Now...read this carefully. When you pull the control arm off of the car....with the ball joint attached....you will see a flat bar shaped piece that terminates toward the front of the T piece. It has a cylindrical bonded rubber bushing pressed into it. The sway bar bolts to this arm. That is the control arm. The control arm bushing from an early rabbit can be pressed in. It is 1/8" too short in the tube length. Just add a 1/16" thick bronze thrust washer to each end. Fits like a glove. BUT...The stock rabbit black rubber bushings are way too soft. Use Urethane ones. Look in European car. Many companies carry them. Or...for about $65, you can get steel bushing stock and have any machine shop make you some from hard Delrin. Those work great and are my next step.

The other arm...starting at the ball joint and moving to the rear to a pair of centered "ears"...is the radius arm. I don't know the part # for the donuts. It does not matter anyway. I have been searching for them for almost 25 years....you will not find them. They were not that good anyway. The centering ring underneath is more important. It is a simple plstic grommet that kept the radius arm from chattering on the metal of the ear it bolts into. You will never find that either. Why? Because this car only existed for 6 years on the factory books. The bushings and centering rings will never wear out from driving in that amount of time...or even an accident. I can think of few reasons why the factory or the dealer would ever need to stock any. But...age kills them.

Back to the castor adjustment. There are only 2 ways to add positive castor to any car. This car is no different. (1) Slot the bolts on the strut mounting so you can slide it rearward...thus increasing the "rake" of the strut. You will find that this is impossible on the 411/412. The strut bearing dimensions will not allow it. (2) slidr the bottom of the strut forward. This could bed done...as you were thinking..by adding shims behind the front radius arm donuts...pushing the control arm forward....with the balljoint...and the bottom of the strut...again, increasing the rake of the strut. Unfortunately, to do that you will need to have spherical washers/bearings on the control arm bushings. And....everytime you add acceleration or hit rough road, it will compress the do-nuts on the radius arm, pivot on the spherical bearings...and change the castor and toe-in.

In order to understand what I am about to relay to you...you really need to have the "T" piece off the car...and in front of you. Remember now...the back center bolt is slotted...and SLIDES from front to back. Now...if the front bolts were only slotted from front to back...instead of side to side...the whole "T" assembly could slide from front to back...with the control arms...and the ball joints...and the struts...making castor adjustable without changing camber or toe in...or radius arm bushing compression. Yes....this can be done easily!

Looking at the T piece...you will see a welded on flat pad that each bolt passes through. Those pads press up against the body. Since the rear has the nut slotted...nothing needs to be done there. On the front, you need to make sure these pads are tack welded on securely. Then...aquire a piece of 1"1/8" bar stock. Cut it into two lengths...the thickness of the bolt holes in th front of the "T" piece. Have an oval slot milled through the center of the two parts. So you have two tubes with a 1" oval hole milled through the center. Take the "T" piece to a machine shop. Have the front "T" piece bolt holes milled out to 1'1/8". Press in the two metal bars with the slotted holes. Align them from dfront to back. Weld them top and bottom. Your castor is now adjustable, simply by loosening the "T" piece bolts and prying the "T" piece forward or back. Ray