i am having a serious head scratching problem here.
when starting the engine (1.7FI) it turns over real sluggish and will not fire. if you push start it the engine runs fine.
i have just put a brand new starter on, i have a brand new battery too. once you have tried to turn it over about 3 time the battery is too low to turn it any more.
now i did try it with 2 batteries in series and i flew into life but after a couple of tries at this they were both too tired to start it.
i have checked all the connections from the battery to the starter and they are fine
any ideas? this is my daily driver so i need to get this sorted as soon as possible
my final thought is that there is something stopping the flywheel turning freely on the starter which to me suggests something internal! and that is a major problem!!!
Try removing the starter and replacing it again, did you remember to install the new brass bsuhing? And did you take the old one out?
If that doesnt work I would try to exchange it for another (tell the shop some crazy story so they will exchange it). Try another and if another new one does the same exact thing then it is something else.
Last edited by DeathBus on Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i have had it out twice tonight already! and the unit came from my dads company so should have neen a good one. i'll ask him when he gets back from his vacation in italy, typical only time i need him..............
minty73 wrote:i have had it out twice tonight already! and the unit came from my dads company so should have neen a good one. i'll ask him when he gets back from his vacation in italy, typical only time i need him..............
Well maybe Ray can come up with something else, he is the Type 4 Knowledge GOD!
I would think the solenoid is bad, did you replace the brass bushing on the starter shaft?
minty73 wrote:whole brand new unit, everything new
Yes I understand that, but starters come with a brass ring that inserts into the Bell sousing of the tranny, this must be replaced when you put a new unit on.
edit :: Sousing??? lmao Housing, damn I have not even had a beer yet!
Last edited by DeathBus on Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This sounds like a voltage drop problem to me. When you push it to get it going you're getting 12 volts at the coil and it fires. When you're cranking its getting too little voltage to make a spark. At this time of year you should be getting 10 volts or so at the coil while cranking, much less than 8 and it won't start.
Trying to check for voltage drop is hard on a Type 4. The battery's hid up front and the starter and alternator are inaccessible underneath.
Is your charging voltage okay. This should be 13-15 volts more or less across the battery posts when the engine is revved a little, with the lights and heater on or with them off.
Try a temperary jumper from the 12+ post on the battery to the hot side of the coil, be careful not to touch this to ground or you'll get some real fireworks. If it fires up easier this way you've got a problem somewhere in your ignition/12+ circuits. If it doesn't help, look more for a bad ground.
Voltage drop checks:
Check voltage drop between postive post on battery and the hot terminal on the starter while cranking. This should be only 1 volt or so. If much higher replace the cable. Bigger than stock wires always help here, but are hard to run them on a Type 4.
Check voltage drop between negative post on battery and engine case while cranking. Should be only a 1/2 volt or so. If more, check connections and condition of engine ground strap. Check conditions of negative battery cable and its connections. Remove and clean both ends of both the ground strap and negative battery cable. Did you scrape the inside of the battery cable ends down to clean metal? Use those little red and green anticorrosion rings or goop vasiline all over the terminals. I even goop it on the posts and inside the cable ends before I put them together, this stops corrosion dead.
Check voltage drop from hot terminal on starter to hot terminal on coil with ignition switch on. Should be only 1/2 volt or so. If more you are going to have to access the ignition switch and check voltage drop on either side of it and across it. If its the switch replace it, if its the wires you might want/have to run new ones. The L-jet takes power for the fuel pump right from the starter solenoid when starting, not sure about the D-jet, check this circuit too. Has anyone cut and spliced your wires somewhere, old splices are always a trouble spot. It's worth using those goo filled heat-shrink splices on your ignition circuit.
Last resort is to install an ignition coil with an external ballast resister and then come up with a way to short out the resister while starting. One way is to tap into the spade terminal on the starter solenoid where the wire for the fuel pump connects if you have an L-jet, again I'm not sure if its there on the D-jet. The other way is to have a push button switch on the dash like I have had on my '72 Toyota Land Cruiser for years. I did this on my 74 van too until I bought a solenoid with the extra spade terminal.
I would tend to disagree with the voltage drop theory, but I would be intereted to see if that is what it is, always eager to learn something new
A voltage drop wouldnt run down the battery. The BINDING of the solenoid or the bad coil is causing the drain on the battery.
Usually the "hot start" problem in vans causes the solenoid on the starter to not function, this is caused by resistance building up in the ignition wire from the ignition key to the starter, correct?
No, voltage drop won't run a battery down too quickly, but it will keep it from charging. His post doesn't say how long he is cranking the engine to get it started, he might well be getting the starter pretty hot. Low voltage translates into high amps and a fast drain. But yes, this sounds like the battery is dying unusually fast.
I've had VW solenoids stick when they are hot, but I alway attributed it to corrosion. There might well be other causes, as well.
Outside of the battery being down the symptons are straight voltage drop. I cut my teeth on 6 volt VW's and voltage drop is a horrendous problem on a six volt rig, whether a Model A Ford, '50 Chey, or a VW. One of my first cars was a rusty '66 Beetle, and often it flat out wouldn't fire when cranked with the starter, yet if it was parked on the level I sometimes could get it to start by turning the engine to just before TDC, pulling the car it back against the gear lash and then kicking it forward hard again. I eventually put big new battery cables on and it would crank and start well, afterwards.
I hadn't thought of that Beetle in years. It was the slimiest, oil drippingest mess you ever saw, a quart every 500 miles or so, but I never saw another Bug that could touch it. 35-38 MPG at 80 on the freeway, and it would pass anything in sight on the hills. The floor pan was a holy mess and the seat eventually fell through the floor. Never could understand why the engine ran so good. It was just a stock 1500 for all I could tell (the 1300 died before my time), but it just screamed. I wish I had pulled it before the car was junked.
There is no bushing on type 4. It is a self supporting starter. Actually there is a hole....but no bushing from the factory. The shaft on the type 4 stater does not need that support. On the automatic, it has a plastic cap...and a short shaft and does not even reach the hole in the tranny. Check the ground strap at the transmission. It does sound like a voltage problem. If the ground strap on the tranny, or the ground strap to the battery are not making good connection, the starter will try and pull ground through the engine case and its limited connections to the body. It will consume a lot of power. Or it could very well be a bad starter. I have had brand new bad ones....but never a Bosch. Hook it up to jumper cables.. Also make sure the alternator belt is tight but not over tight.
Also...is this an automatic? Then you must use the automatic starter. It pulls more load but puts out more hp. Also check your timing. If it is far off...too advanced...its too much load.
My bet is a ground problem. Lastly....check that your tranny...if its an auto...has the cable linkage properly adjusted. If not it may be partially in gear. Ray
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