Master cylinder solutions and calipers???

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:06 am

Returned to the project and the forum and discovered some changes. Had the 73 2dr fit with the Super MC and moved on to other parts of the car. Bigger problems elsewhere, so brakes not tested. Current back posts indicate the Super MC does not have enough volume. I've got a nice bracket though.

Looks as though folks are going in a couple of directions. Rebuilding the new/old MC, installing the power unit and power cylinder, installing the Bus master(where the power would mount or back at that bracket under the dash). How are things shaping up? I'm really close now. I just need to stop this thing.

Lastly, front calipers were shot. Ordered 914s and the bolt-up pattern is not even close. Looking for some part #s to get this right as well.

thanks for any input

ecdez · Post by **ecdez** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:00 am

As far as the master cylinder is concerned, I believed it was mentioned that the type 3 unit was a good alternate. I don't know what year though. I have a '68 squareback also and was going to buy a new MC for that. Before I put it in, I'll check it out and see if it's adaptable in some way.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:13 am

Well, I got some rebuilt master cylinders via autopartsgiant.com for around $27 each, they were rebuilt by A1 Cardone I believe. Ray mentioned that they probably aren't any good, and I haven't tested or disassembled one yet to see for myself, but that avenue is definitely worth a try. Keep your eyes open on ebay, several NOS units have popped up (yes, besides the power ones). For the brake calipers, you need to make sure that you get the correct year 914 equivalent, look for the post with a breakdown of what years are interchangeable between what years of Type 4.

Edit: Here's a link to the post

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=72506

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:47 am

Didnt Ray mention that you can modify a late Bus master?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:32 am

The late bus master cylinder with the 21mm bore can be put in the trunk in the palce where the power unit went. You need to cur the hole, and make a strengthening plate to weld or bolt to the firewall...and you need to make the bracket and pushrod assembly...and move the brake pipes to fit. Its not that hard. Get everything together and you could do this in a day.
The type 3 cylinder has the same volumes....and could be mounted in the trunk just like the bus...but would need the same brackets and mounts to be fabbed. But....the type 3 cannot be bracketed to be used under the dash because there would be no way to properly mount the brake lines. The pedal cluster will get in the way.
Also...you can use the SEALS and flap valves ONLY...from the type 3 to rebuild the type 4 cylinder....but DO NOT swap the pistons. They have different lengts than the type 4's.
Using the SB master cylinder will be a disaster. I have done that. It is possible to make it work...mine did...but in order to get decent volume to the front calipers...you need to swap the front circuit to the rear circuit. And....you need to re-adjust the pedal pushrod to get a different pre-load on the valves. Its not a good solution at all.
If you desperatly need a stock one....I know where both an NOS standard cylinder is (ATE) and an NOS power cylinder are (FAG). On the shelf. The bus cylinder is the very best solution I have found for several reasons. (1) This mode, once done will allow you to use almost any stndard style master cylinder of the proper volume. (2) The bus cylinder is good because it has more than enough volume for the type 4....so it gives shorter pedal stroke.
A great...great mod....is to get a set of stainless teflon brake hoses for front and rear. They are no more expensive than stock brake hoses these days.
The calipers are the same for 411/412/914...but are two differnt spacings. There is 68-august of 72 and august of 72 on.
You need to be sure which front end you have. If your rotors have the flange around the axel nut in the center...that makes it easy to hange the wheel on ...then you have the late model. They use thicker pads as well.
ONLY USE METAL PADS> Most of the books list an organic pad ...THATS BS! VW NEVER installed organic pads on the 411/412. This car will smoke organic pads in one day...and ruin your rotors. Repco metal-master pads...or the "silver" series pads from any Beck Arnley dealer are excellent. Ray

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:36 pm

Thanks again.
Well until I can find the time for the "A" bracket, pushrod fab and bus MC instalation, the NOS MC will have to do for now. Ray, info on that ATE NOS master would be great. If I have to rebuild it, I have the backposts for that. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing pictures of the Bus master installation and fab. In due time of course, I have to ruin this NOS MC first.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:03 pm

Ok....this is one of my "sources". Read that as protected "stashes". So don't everyone stampede ate once. This guy is technically a wholesaler....I think....but is a retailer as well. His brake experience is beyond compare on this continent. He used to work for a major brake pad manufacturer. He can tell you things from just thr printed friction codes...you cannot believe. He is a KYB dealer....an ATE dealer...an FAG dealer....and a Kelsey-hayes dealer (TRW/Lucas). He keeps ALL catalogs from about 69 on. He can cross match anything. He has one each of the NOS cylinders on the shelf. They have been there for years...but are well kept. They are not dirt cheap...but are about normal price. This guy is a great source of metal pads and German rotors....and calipers.

The place is......ESP brake...on main street in deep ellum...Dallas TX.
214-748-6386. They are not on the interenet...and do not do business on the net...or at least still did not about 4 months ago. Tell the guy...or Debbie...the girl...that Ray Greenwood....that strange guy with the 412 ...recommended you. Ray

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:44 pm

FYI: For those folks a ways from Texas: No shipping here - just pick-up.
Save Debbie from those calls and repeated explanation.

Thanks anyways

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:39 pm

Oh...well....just let me know. If you buy something, I can pick it up and ship it for you. Ray

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:13 pm

Thanks, but I should be able to dig-up something here Ca.

albert · Post by **albert** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:44 pm

allo ray i find on the web. brake caliper rebuilt for 75 euro tax includ , and fuile pressure controle for 49 euro if some 412 fans needs that , that is from germany ,,

Bowman74 · Post by **Bowman74** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:17 am

I don't know if I'm coming to the party a little late but e-vw parts has a type-4 master cylinder for a mere $195. Mine leaks a little bit, I'll probably give it a try. Of course for $195, maybe I should try one of the $27 dollar ones first...

http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merch ... ype4Brakes

Thanks,

Kevin

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:34 pm

Ah, make sure you need that one before you order, it's the power brake master cylinder. The manual brakes have two mounting ears coming off of the body instead of the attachment at the end. If you need a power brake master cylinder, I have a NOS unit I'll sell you for $45.

Bowman74 · Post by **Bowman74** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:06 pm

ubercrap wrote:Ah, make sure you need that one before you order, it's the power brake master cylinder. The manual brakes have two mounting ears coming off of the body instead of the attachment at the end. If you need a power brake master cylinder, I have a NOS unit I'll sell you for $45.

Thanks for the heads up, I might very well have made that mistake as I have the manual brakes. Sigh, nothing is ever easy.

Thanks,

Kevin

albert · Post by **albert** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:45 pm

allo bowman ,make attention , this master cilinder on the adress is for power brake at 195$ , make attention to horder standar (no power )

and go to wagenteile in germany , he have rebuilt kit for 40$

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