Cranky cranking...what would you put your money on?

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:19 pm

The car is 61 Ghia with 67 s/p 1500.

The timeline
3 weeks ago
- car runs fine, has a warm idle issue(dies when warm)

2 weeks ago
- change the carb to see if there is any difference
- can't crank the engine more then 2-3 times, seems like dead battery

1 week ago
- battery is fine
- I suspected bad connection on the solenoid which snaps in the tightening process
- turns out solenoid was fine

this past weekend
- got a "new" starter from a friend which is tested
- car acts the same, cranks in a very tired manner 2-3 times
- tried boosting, cranks 2 additional times, nothing
- cleaned all the connection wires, all in good shape
- tried taking the plugs out, suspected flooding, changed the gassy oil
- no difference

yesterday
- would not crank at all, just click
- I took the starter out and tried connecting outside the car
- solendoid works but starter does not

Both are 6V starters,c ar has been converted to 12V. I suspected hydraulic lock from flooding the engine but when I took the plugs out it acted the same. I can crank the engine by hand.
Is it possible that both starters died on my? Or is there is something causing them to die...I'm affraid of something internally in the engine but as I said, I can crank it manually.

Starter? Bushing? Something bigger?

Post by **Marc** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:31 pm

First, you cannot bench-test a VW starter (except for the AutoStick type) without some kind of support for the shaft - you can damage it by trying.
If it's been cranking OK until recently and the starter's truly 6V, the `67 130-tooth 12V flywheel must've been replaced with a 109-tooth 6V unit when the engine was installed.
If the battery is in fact "fine" and all cable connections are good (including the ground strap around the front trans mount) I'd say starter bushing is the prime suspect.

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:04 pm

OK. I would like to test both of them. What would be the easiest way to test it? J. Muir says just hold the starer against the axle or body other part which gives me the impression it's for grounding purposes.

Post by **Marc** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:44 am

You must have the starter supported in a fixture made for the purpose (or bolted into a trans case with a good bushing in it) in order to keep the moving parts centered - otherwise the magnetic field will yank them to one side against the field pieces ("poling") - if it turns at all it'll be slow and damage can occur to the windings.

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:29 pm

OK, thank you. I will try to test it again. Thing is, if I put it in, I still don't know if it's the starter...or if bushing is screwed. It probobly won't turn leaving me not knowing why.

TeamEvil · Post by **TeamEvil** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:34 am

Did everything work fine (other than the warm idle issue) before you swapped out the carb? And after the carb swap, the cranking problem began?

If yes, you might have a shorting problem rather than a starter problem. Double check that you didn't move or cross any wires going to the coil. Make sure that the idle shut-off solenoid is connected to the positive coil terminal, make sure that the choke wire is correct as well.

I once changed my deck lid and crossed the positive and ground on the number plate light. The car started fine but ran strangely/sluggish, and cranked very slowly. I had a short circut but it was at such a low level that some things worked and others really didn't seem to. Finally the wires just melted away and turned from copper to a bright pinkish color.

Maybe . . . ?

Luck,

TC

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:43 am

You know, you could be right. I will check that.

Yes the car started fine before the carb swap

Post by **Marc** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:53 am

Batan wrote:...the car started fine before the carb swap

You mean the car hasn't run since then? That does throw a new light on things...see what happens if you crank with the ignition disabled (take the wire off of the + teminal on the coil). If the timing somehow got bumped up the starter will strain badly against it.

TeamEvil · Post by **TeamEvil** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:41 pm

Marc could be onto something with the ignition timing. Did you remove the distributor cap in order to get a wrench in behind the carb/maniford to remove the nut?

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:21 pm

TeamEvil wrote:Marc could be onto something with the ignition timing. Did you remove the distributor cap in order to get a wrench in behind the carb/maniford to remove the nut?

Damn, yes I did! I don't think anything moved though...

On the second thought, the car acted the same with the plugs taken out.

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:17 pm

All that said, should I and could I pull the engine on my own(never pulled an ac engine) taking into account that I have:
1 floor jack
1 bottle jack
2 jack stands
sore back

I'd like to replace engine seal and mounts anyways as well as tranny mount. Suggestions? Or are there other things to try before that? I'd like to check that bushing in the tranny...what's the drill?

dpeters60ghia · Post by **dpeters60ghia** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:05 pm

Ermin,

Yes...you can do it. It's very straight forward...

On top of the tools you have Trevor...and Steve..and Janet!

(and maybe others)

Heck, I'll drive up next weekend (23'rd) if you need a hand. I'd love to see your Ghia in person.
(but you have to buy a Beer or two

)

- Doug

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:24 pm

Hahaha...Trevor's busy. Janet will help though. As for you, you should drive up for beer if nothing else! If you want to see the car and have a beer, let's do it!

Batan · Post by **Batan** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:28 pm

I went again today to see what's up. I looked at the starter bushing with a mirror and it's about couple of milimiters thick...or about 1/16 of an inch. I don't know how thick it should be.

I bought a 1/2" bolt to try to thread it in there but it's too small.
Does anybody know the thickness of the starter shaft? It's it's 1/2", then the bushing is worn for sure since the mentioned 1/2" bolt has slack when in it.

What is the easiest way to get the bushing out w/o taking the engine out?

dpeters60ghia · Post by **dpeters60ghia** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:25 am

Ermin,

You're on... I'll call you later this week and make arrangements.

- Doug