411 history

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:52 am

I recently was told by an old timer that the type four engine was designed in the fifties possibly as the powerplant for the then new type three! it was said that the manufacturing difficulties were just too much
Now before I am shot down in flames: there are quite a few basic similarities between the type four and the old 36 horse 1200
the removable cam followers without splitting the case, the narrowness of the basic engine, rear bolt at cam tunnel behind flywheel, a side mounted fuel pump albeit in a totally different location, the shape of the main bearing webs, the oil sump plug on the side etc.
I think that those early type threes were just too expensive to include a totally new engine design as well!
Can anyone throw light on this
Regards
Armand

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:00 am

I'm sure ideas came from that field of research ( type 3). From my understanding, it was the younger Porsches dream to make a more luxurious car...that could compete in the western markets. Most precisely....the USA. But, a lot of the necessity of thought that a better design was needed...did come from the experience with the type 3.
The crank mounted fan, fuel injection etc. The type 1 had just about hit the wall in terms of development...without changing the materials involved. If you are changing materials and castings..why not make inprovements that cut maintenance down....like the lifters and the oil filter.
That was a big deal to. In this country and most western markets, the car owners are more convenience prone. they are less likely to do the diligent maintenance common in Germany and most old world countries. It had to have oil filter...as the change intervals would be longer.
Also...cost. The front torsion bar system of the bug....if you read the development story in small wonder....is one one the most expensive parts of the whole car next to the engine. The type 3 design was a great improvment over the bug....but even more costly to make. The strut suspension had potential to handle better, had many fewer parts...and could be made much cheaper. Same with the coil spring rear trailing wishbones of the type 4. From other threads on here...I have read that the original 411...was potentially destined to have the 911 2.2 6 cylinder. I have also heard tha there is one, of that configuration in the museum....maybe I heard wrong. Iwill dig up some more history. Hopefully Tuna will chime in...as he has most of it memorized. Though many claim it is not.....from all of my delvings into 411/412...much of these cars ...or many parts of them, were originally built by NSU. A part of the original Audi family (NSU, DKW, Horch,Wanderer...thats what the four rings stand for...one ring for each company)....and a VW aquisition in ...likw 68/69? The design.....also has some of that "audi-esqe" feel in the way they accomplished certain things. Ray

Lahti411 · Post by **Lahti411** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:04 pm

I found these pictures from german type4 site

http://www.vw411-412besitzer.de/glinde2 ... _gross.jpg

http://www.vw411-412besitzer.de/glinde2 ... _gross.jpg

The title is: Alles Porsche, oder was?

Unfortunately there wasn't any info about this car, but as you can see the Porsche 6-cylinder fits beautifully.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:05 pm

That's cool, I thought it would fit just by eyeballing it. Good to know...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:44 pm

Holy crap!

Check out that interesting rear hatch! how do they keep the rain off the engine....and out of the tail light wiring? That is either Bosch high pressure or CIS. See the fuel filter and fuel pressure accumulator on the left? Ray

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:45 am

Hi
thanks
Gunther Artz the famous german car customizer apparently built a few 411's with 911 sixes before they built the now famous mid engined Nordstad Beetles on 914 chassis. I do realize that the 411 is a totally different car and looking at the sedan engine bay it was clear that another type of engine was considered
i have also fitted a type four engine into a type three and the fit was very close.

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:16 pm

Hey, I had a t3 fastback I wanted to put that motor in also! LOL!
Hey is that engine lid a idea to get rid of the rust problem or let in more air for that motor? I wonder what tranny they used? You think the t4 would hold up? what about the drive line? bill

MGVWfan · Post by **MGVWfan** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:57 am

If it wasn't that stamping "Porsche" on a part doubled its price, I'd be first in line for that swap...wow, imagine, a T4 sedan with 6-cylinder power. Unfortunately, I'd have to first find a sedan, that fan housing wouldn't fit in a Variant, I'd bet.

Notice the oil tank filler on the right?

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:37 am

If you gave up the cargo area it would fit, remember the orange car. Porsche six into a 2dr. sedan would be

. Maybe the dream can be a reality someday...

Oh, I think they trimmed the engine lid guts to clear the Porsche shroud, or maybe because the air intake system was no longer feasible, or maybe the need for more airflow?

MGVWfan · Post by **MGVWfan** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:10 am

Herr Doktor Ray, I beg to differ, sir...the four rings of the Auto-Union are for Horch, Wanderer, DKW, and Audi...NSU in Neckarsulm was bought up by VW in the late 60's and added to Auto-Union and VW to form VW-NSU-Auto Union (big name, didn't last long). I think I read that in "Small Wonder" a few months ago. Interesting thing is, Dr. Horch founded both Horch and Audi, so I guess Auto Union was half Horch?

Too bad NSU's Wankel powerplant didn't get fully debugged and stuffed into the rear of a VW, now that would have been interesting. Norton made an air cooled version for a motorcycle in the early 70's, so an air cooled twin rotor Wankel in a 412 was possible in the late 60's.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:35 am

Interesting, I had no idea there was an aircooled Wankel motor ever put in a motorcycle...crazy! I have a bottle of OEM touch-up paint that I found in its original box in the glove compartment of one of my 412's, and it is labelled "VW, Audi, NSU."

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:40 am

Horch is german for hear but they outlawed surnames at some stage and the name was translated into latin hence Audi which means the same
Armand

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:15 pm

I'm pretty sure that NSU was part of the original 4. But...I have read that both ways. That Audi...was one of the original 4. Yes. NSU was bought by VW in the big changover (68?)....but I believe it had been part of the audi family for some time and may have seperated. I'll have to start digging.
By the way......these old Marques still have considerable sway in Germany and other parts of Europe. Diamler started making ultra luxury cars wih the Maybach badge again a few years back.....mainly to sell to the older extablished in life, rich people ...who can still remember that Maybach was a name that was huge. By the way....the diesels in the Tiger tank mark 1...were 500hp maybachs. Kinda makes you wonder who they want to sell cars to

. Have you seen a Maybach? they make rolls royce look like a beat up cadie with a spray can paint job. About 6000 lbs of leather, gold plate and horsepower.
I had read that Audi was contemplating bringing back the Horch name for some ultra expensive hardware. Horch was known for ultra luxurious road coaches before WWll....mostly drop top...similar to Merceedes...but very gorgeous. Ray

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:58 pm

Horch was no slouch either!

http://www.seriouswheels.com/images/a_H ... riolet.jpg

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:07 pm

Wow, what a work of art!!!!!!!!!! That is a beautiful car! Thanks for all the cool info guys!
Where the motors made differently VW/Porsche? I mean like the machine specs and toleraces? I watched a show the other day showing the Ferrerri motors being built with the double overhead cam and how sweet the specs are on them so they can haul ace.... So I guess the better the specs the more the cost,lol!! I want double over head cams on each side,lol!! We can Dream right,lol! I actually love what a VW motor can do! Always impressed how hard they work per cc! Maybe we get them to do a 412 with modern materials and tools,lol! bill

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411 history

411 history

Sweet

Work of art!!!