Help me defeat the seatbelt interlock...
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ubercrap
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Help me defeat the seatbelt interlock...
Arrrrgghhh...
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Guest
What I did was pull out the fuse panel and there was one large relay that controls that seatbelt light, door open dome light and the lockout mechanism. I pulled the relay and bridged the wire coming from the ignition key to the one going out to the automatic shift lockout (and then to the starter, I imagine a manual will go directly to the starter). This bypassed the lockout entirely. There were two drawbacks:
1) It no longer buzzes with the door open (I consider that an advantage).
2) The dome light no longer comes on when the door opens (for some reason this is all switched through the same relay.
What you could try doing is leaving the relay in place and just bridge the wire coming from the ignition into the relay with the wire going out to the automatic shift selector lockout. In theory this should work but as we all know, we don't live in theory...
In the end this method bypasses all that nasty seating, and seatbelt wiring. I had all of that disconnected and because of a short somewhere in that wiring, it still locked me out. Bridging those two wires and taking the relay out of the picture put an end to that nonsense.
Thanks,
Kevin
1) It no longer buzzes with the door open (I consider that an advantage).
2) The dome light no longer comes on when the door opens (for some reason this is all switched through the same relay.
What you could try doing is leaving the relay in place and just bridge the wire coming from the ignition into the relay with the wire going out to the automatic shift selector lockout. In theory this should work but as we all know, we don't live in theory...
In the end this method bypasses all that nasty seating, and seatbelt wiring. I had all of that disconnected and because of a short somewhere in that wiring, it still locked me out. Bridging those two wires and taking the relay out of the picture put an end to that nonsense.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Marc
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http://vintagebus.com/wiring/Type_4_USA ... 1973-2.jpg
Locate the multifunction relay (J34).
The two largest (4.0 mm²) wires going to it are a white/red-striped one from the ignition switch and a red/black-striped one going to the Neutral safety switch. Splice those two wires together to bypass the relay contacts for the seat belt interlock; all other functions of the relay should not be defeated.
Locate the multifunction relay (J34).
The two largest (4.0 mm²) wires going to it are a white/red-striped one from the ignition switch and a red/black-striped one going to the Neutral safety switch. Splice those two wires together to bypass the relay contacts for the seat belt interlock; all other functions of the relay should not be defeated.
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raygreenwood
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Its really simpler than that even. The wires that run down the seta belt holsters rarely short. In fact...its rare that anything ever goes wrong with the interlock system...except for the strip contact in the seat. If you want to leave it working just for giggles and grins...there is a 3" long zipper....that I bet you did not know was there...on the inside edge of both front seats next to the piping...right by the heater levers. Unzip...and the strip connector pulls out. Its usually just bent.
The real problem that generally happens...is that the two prong plug...under each seat....that plugs into the two pin socket right up against the bulkhead under the carpet...has been pulled out of the socket when the PO had the seat removed for any reason...and not plugged back in. In cases of a leaky car...the two simple T-1 female connectors may have corroded and will not make connection. Instead of cutting wires under the dash...and further bastardizing what is actually one ofthe est and tightest wiring harnesses that VW ever made.....just make a 2" long wire bridge with male terminals and plug it into the socket under the seat....preserving the originality and functionality of the system.
The buzzer...on most cars...except the 74's...can be defeated by simply pulling the two prong relay at the left end of the fuse block. That IS the buzzer.
In 25 years of driving and working on 411/412's...I have never found one with a short in this incredibly simple safety wiring system...unless the previous owner put it there...BY CUTTING WIRES!!.
By the way...the buzzer is really only for one thing. When the central section key cylinder is still pushed in ....which means that either the key is in the ignition, or the cylinder needs to be cleaned and lubed if the key is not in it...or your key is so freakin worn out it slips out without giving enough friction to pull out the buzzer defeat.....It is simply to remind you to take your key out.
More than once...this buzzer saved my ass. while sitting waiting to pick someone up.....and getting bored ...with the key in the ignition...I got out of the car. Reflex for me is a flick of the wrist and hold the button n.....close the door....and lock. The buzzer will sound when the key is in the ignition. You can sience it from buzzing with the seat belt by bridging the plug under the seat. I suggest leaving it on...and just making sure that your ignition key and tumbler are in good shape. Then the only time it should buzz....isfor a few seconds when you are either just about to lock the key in your car....or...when you have been dumbenough to leave the key in.....which is illegal in Texas. If you must leave it in the ingnition while doing maintenance....simply pull back slightly so the cylinder center pops back at you...and it will not buzz.
Why is a key buzzer important? Well chilluns....I'm here to tell you...that if you ever lock your keys in a 411/412...you are hosed! The windows roll up 3/4" into the door frames. A slim jim will not work because of th location of the latch rod. In the rare instance it does...you will need to remove the entire pannel and locking system to get it to ever latch right again...because it bends the rod. that rod is almost 3' long....and a b*tch to work on. Lastly.....the only way you will get in...is to use a largescrewdriver and soft rag...to pry the forward topedge of the door away from the body to get a coathanger in. That...will always screw up:...the paint, the door seal...andthe fit of the door..as the doors can be bent in that area with as little as 30 lbs of force. Been there...done that.
QUIT CUTTING WIRES. If all of the wires have continuity from end to end...simply jumper the plugs. In fact...the dealer used to HAVE a factory jumper just for this plug. Ray
The real problem that generally happens...is that the two prong plug...under each seat....that plugs into the two pin socket right up against the bulkhead under the carpet...has been pulled out of the socket when the PO had the seat removed for any reason...and not plugged back in. In cases of a leaky car...the two simple T-1 female connectors may have corroded and will not make connection. Instead of cutting wires under the dash...and further bastardizing what is actually one ofthe est and tightest wiring harnesses that VW ever made.....just make a 2" long wire bridge with male terminals and plug it into the socket under the seat....preserving the originality and functionality of the system.
The buzzer...on most cars...except the 74's...can be defeated by simply pulling the two prong relay at the left end of the fuse block. That IS the buzzer.
In 25 years of driving and working on 411/412's...I have never found one with a short in this incredibly simple safety wiring system...unless the previous owner put it there...BY CUTTING WIRES!!.
By the way...the buzzer is really only for one thing. When the central section key cylinder is still pushed in ....which means that either the key is in the ignition, or the cylinder needs to be cleaned and lubed if the key is not in it...or your key is so freakin worn out it slips out without giving enough friction to pull out the buzzer defeat.....It is simply to remind you to take your key out.
More than once...this buzzer saved my ass. while sitting waiting to pick someone up.....and getting bored ...with the key in the ignition...I got out of the car. Reflex for me is a flick of the wrist and hold the button n.....close the door....and lock. The buzzer will sound when the key is in the ignition. You can sience it from buzzing with the seat belt by bridging the plug under the seat. I suggest leaving it on...and just making sure that your ignition key and tumbler are in good shape. Then the only time it should buzz....isfor a few seconds when you are either just about to lock the key in your car....or...when you have been dumbenough to leave the key in.....which is illegal in Texas. If you must leave it in the ingnition while doing maintenance....simply pull back slightly so the cylinder center pops back at you...and it will not buzz.
Why is a key buzzer important? Well chilluns....I'm here to tell you...that if you ever lock your keys in a 411/412...you are hosed! The windows roll up 3/4" into the door frames. A slim jim will not work because of th location of the latch rod. In the rare instance it does...you will need to remove the entire pannel and locking system to get it to ever latch right again...because it bends the rod. that rod is almost 3' long....and a b*tch to work on. Lastly.....the only way you will get in...is to use a largescrewdriver and soft rag...to pry the forward topedge of the door away from the body to get a coathanger in. That...will always screw up:...the paint, the door seal...andthe fit of the door..as the doors can be bent in that area with as little as 30 lbs of force. Been there...done that.
QUIT CUTTING WIRES. If all of the wires have continuity from end to end...simply jumper the plugs. In fact...the dealer used to HAVE a factory jumper just for this plug. Ray
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
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I know, I know Ray, I'll try not to hack anything else... 
I just find these safety interlock things the most annoying things in the world, on par with those stupid stop-gap motorized passive seatbelts. I always wear my seatbelt, I don't even feel comfortable moving a car in my driveway without my seatbelt. Also, the original wiring to the actual seats/buckles seems to be missing? Maybe I'm just blind?
I just find these safety interlock things the most annoying things in the world, on par with those stupid stop-gap motorized passive seatbelts. I always wear my seatbelt, I don't even feel comfortable moving a car in my driveway without my seatbelt. Also, the original wiring to the actual seats/buckles seems to be missing? Maybe I'm just blind? -
raygreenwood
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Ok...look had at the seat belt latch "stalks". See the funky spiral under that black heat shrink tube? Thats the wires. They exit...into a groove on the "hump" side of the seat track...and go forward to the relay panel. Now...look under the drivers seat. Put you fingers on the inboard seat guide rail and follow it all the way forward...till you hit the low bulkhead in front of the battery....either just to the left of the inboard seat rail end ther...or just to the right of the outboard rail....but bolted to that bulkhead...you will find a small square piece of plastic sticking out from the wall. It is about 20mm x 10mm x20mm...rectangular. Thats the plug for the seat trigger switch wires. When that connection is made....but the seat belt buckle is not....it enables the buzzer. So...you need to make sure nothing is bridging that connection...dang...I may have told you backward in the last post. What the seat switch is...is two coils of wire in a vinyl strip. You sit on them...they make connection and feed through that plug. If yousimply unplug the strip under each seat....only the key buzzer will come on...regardless of wether the seats belts are fastened.
Now...the interlock...is accomplished...yes...inside the relay...but the wire is shifter position senstive. Most specifically to neutral and park. It utilizes the netral safety switch. its simpler to bridge the neutral terminal. Ray
Plug in the vom to it...
Now...the interlock...is accomplished...yes...inside the relay...but the wire is shifter position senstive. Most specifically to neutral and park. It utilizes the netral safety switch. its simpler to bridge the neutral terminal. Ray
Plug in the vom to it...
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raygreenwood
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Yep...I'm not trying to be an idiot. Its just that to me..these carshave a lot of "firsts" in them. They were competing at the time, with Volvo's, Saab 90's. The safety angle in Europe was large. These cars are ALL crumple zone cars, some of the first of their kind. They had seat belt interlock and child safety locks, Long before anyone required them here.
As annoyying as these systems are, the yare not that annoying. Defeating the seatbelt interlock in daily use is a cinch. If you are just doing mainetnance...just bukle the belt. it does not have to be a round you. It also has a timer circuit in it. About 1 minute after teh car starts...you can disconnect the belts. The buszzer is as simple as pulling the relay. I just do not see ....personnally...enough aggravation to start hacking thesystem up. I simply disconnected the seat switches by pulling the plugs. . Ray
As annoyying as these systems are, the yare not that annoying. Defeating the seatbelt interlock in daily use is a cinch. If you are just doing mainetnance...just bukle the belt. it does not have to be a round you. It also has a timer circuit in it. About 1 minute after teh car starts...you can disconnect the belts. The buszzer is as simple as pulling the relay. I just do not see ....personnally...enough aggravation to start hacking thesystem up. I simply disconnected the seat switches by pulling the plugs. . Ray
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Marc
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Obviously you've never encountered a problem with the contacts themselves inside the relay developing resistance which causes a no-crank - I've seen it many times. Disconnecting the sensor switches can't solve that, only bypassing the contacts is a sure cure.raygreenwood wrote:... I just do not see ....personnally...enough aggravation to start hacking thesystem up. I simply disconnected the seat switches by pulling the plugs. . Ray
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Marc
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Yes (at least for the US market). It was government-mandated in 1974 but the public reaction was so negative that they rescinded the regulation and made it legal to disconnect the switches. The solenoid current still must pass through the relay contacts, however, unless you bypass them - a problem waiting to happen.
From NHTSA:
"We note that our agency's previous experience with ignition interlocks indicates that great care must be taken in requiring vehicle modifications to induce higher belt use, to avoid consumer backlash. As of August 1973, Standard No. 208 required all new cars to be equipped either with automatic protection or an ignition interlock for both front outboard seating positions. General Motors sold about ten thousand of its 1974 model year cars equipped with air bags that met the automatic protection requirement. Every other 1974 model year car sold in the United States came with an ignition interlock, which prevented the engine from operating if either the driver or front seat outboard passenger failed to fasten their manual seat belt.
In a notice published in the Federal Register (39 FR 10272) on March 19, 1974, we described the public reaction to the ignition interlock as follows: "Public resistance to the belt-starter interlock system . . . has been substantial, with current tallies of proper lap-shoulder belt usage on 1974 models running at or below the 60% level. Even that figure is probably optimistic as a measure of results to be achieved, in light of the likelihood that as time passes the awareness that the forcing systems can be disabled, and the means for doing so will become more widely disseminated. . . ."
There were also speeches on the floor of both houses of Congress expressing the public's anger at the interlock requirement. On October 27, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that prohibited any Federal motor vehicle safety standard from requiring or permitting as a means of compliance any seat belt interlock system. In response to this change in the law, we published a final rule in the Federal Register (39 FR 38380) on October 31, 1974 that deleted the interlock option from Standard No. 208 effective immediately."
From NHTSA:
"We note that our agency's previous experience with ignition interlocks indicates that great care must be taken in requiring vehicle modifications to induce higher belt use, to avoid consumer backlash. As of August 1973, Standard No. 208 required all new cars to be equipped either with automatic protection or an ignition interlock for both front outboard seating positions. General Motors sold about ten thousand of its 1974 model year cars equipped with air bags that met the automatic protection requirement. Every other 1974 model year car sold in the United States came with an ignition interlock, which prevented the engine from operating if either the driver or front seat outboard passenger failed to fasten their manual seat belt.
In a notice published in the Federal Register (39 FR 10272) on March 19, 1974, we described the public reaction to the ignition interlock as follows: "Public resistance to the belt-starter interlock system . . . has been substantial, with current tallies of proper lap-shoulder belt usage on 1974 models running at or below the 60% level. Even that figure is probably optimistic as a measure of results to be achieved, in light of the likelihood that as time passes the awareness that the forcing systems can be disabled, and the means for doing so will become more widely disseminated. . . ."
There were also speeches on the floor of both houses of Congress expressing the public's anger at the interlock requirement. On October 27, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that prohibited any Federal motor vehicle safety standard from requiring or permitting as a means of compliance any seat belt interlock system. In response to this change in the law, we published a final rule in the Federal Register (39 FR 38380) on October 31, 1974 that deleted the interlock option from Standard No. 208 effective immediately."
Last edited by Marc on Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc
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Presumably. Remember the Subaru Brat? They stuck a couple of plastic seats in the back so it could be called a "roadster" or some such nonsense in order to avoid the 25% "chicken tax" that forced VW pickups out of the US market after `67. If you'll look at the wiring for a `73 II you'll find an extra inline connector not present in `72 or `74 - looks to me like they were getting ready to add an interlock if NHTSA were to require it.DeathBus wrote:So Buses didnt have them because they were considered 1 ton trucks and not cars?
More on the history of NHTSA and seat belts/passive restraint systems:
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/adlaw/state_farm.htm
Chicken tax:
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=9973