The tranny in the Wagen I am driving is starting to talk to me a bit - quietly still, but why wait for the whisper to become a shout??
And thats why we love these cars, right? They talk to us, and we listen; or is it just me??
Anyway, I plan a trip to the farm to whip the manual 'box from one of the other cars standing there. I want to then put new seals in it, before swapping it for the whispering one. I will then do the bearings and seals and Rays intelligent mods on the whisperer, then swap back again. Then I will know I have gears for a long time.
So - the seals..................
Essentially, has anyone got part no's or seal sizes for the manual tranny/final drive - just the ones that keep the oil in the 'box and off the road?
The input shaft seal is ather unique but exists. Its size is 17mm x30mm x7mm. The only part # I have is CR 6620. The vw part # dor it...is 004 311 491 A.
The side sifferential output seals...hmmm...I'm digging in the little black book. I wil have to pull up the parts book...but they are the same as an 091 tranny. Ge the long/deep version of the seal..not the thinne one. They will both work....one is easier to seat. Ray
So, is there anyone out there that could actually rebuild the T4 manual tranny? Would they have to make all the parts from scratch or modify the tranny to use other parts? So are you basically screwed if the tranny goes? Would you have to go with a whole different setup? Bill
That really depends on what you mean by rebuild. In the beginning, i was appalled to find out that ...on any rebuilt tranny....they don't just do it like an engine, wherin you tear it down, replace all bearings, all synchros, all bushings, all gaskets...etc. They don't do that for anything...unless it needs it. Thast whyt at custom (read that as competant) tranny shops....one tranny may cost you $350....the next one that is identical may cost you $600. It depends on what it needed...and what they put into it. With that train of thought in mind....here is what you need to look at with the type 4 tranny. If you fins one that has damage...like bad transfer case section (gears) or broken tail cone (common) or broken differential (common). Buy it for parts. The entire transfer section can be slaved to another differential...and vica versa. Now...whats important to remember, is that the mainshaft gear stack position ....is shimmed in reference to the differential case dimensions. But...the counter gear cluster shims are set according to the transfer case dimensions. So...if you have a tranny with a cracked case in the transfer section...and swap another case to it...you must know which shims the donor transfer case had in it for the counter gear...and bring them along. If you break the pinion gear...it can be swapped with another...as it splines to the shaft...but the existing shims between the mainshaft gears must stay where they are...as they are based on teh differential case...and the pinion bearing shim on the donor pinion gear must come across along with the TO bearing support tube..because that is what sets the pinion position in relation to the depth of engagement in the ring gear.
In short...if you get a type 4..with a 4 speed. Do not drive it asingle mile...before you tear it down....and find out its condition...and what needs fixing.
A first real easy move..is to pull the pan off of it. Yes...the type 4 four speed has a pan. Look at the counter gear cluster. Its that one piece chunk of gears closest to the lid. If you see any spalling in the roots of the gears on any gear....your days are numbered. If there is no damage to any of the gears.....much can be done to keep it that way.
You will need new needle bearings on teh counter shaft...and a new shaft to run them on. Any competant machine shop can make a new counter gear shaft. Its just a piece of tool steel with a notch in the end. Its less than $100. The bearings....18mm ID X 20mm OD X 22mm length....can be gotten at any reputable bearing dealer. If the inside of the counter gear is rough...You will need bearings with outer shells. Contact me an Iwill give you parts #'s. The next problem is syncros. There are none. I am still llooking to see if there is anything remotely close in the Audi line. But....generally...they can be swapped around if you have a Donor tranny.
The next most important is the differntial and pinion bearings. All common...cept one...but all available. Contact me when you start this...there are particulars about this tranny. Open the differential itself. If there is no spalling or chipping on the spyder gears....you are in great luck..as it can be prevented with simple and easy to get shims. Lastly, only one other set of needle bearings have I been able to find...but generally...none of the others are ever damaged. This tranny can easily be made to be a daily driver for another 100k. But you will be doing it yourself.
Also..bear in mind...there are no special jigs needed for this tranny like all of the other VW types. It is totally unique. Ray
That really depends on what you mean by rebuild. In the beginning, i was appalled to find out that ...on any rebuilt tranny....they don't just do it like an engine, wherin you tear it down, replace all bearings, all synchros, all bushings, all gaskets...etc. They don't do that for anything...unless it needs it. Thast whyt at custom (read that as competant) tranny shops....one tranny may cost you $350....the next one that is identical may cost you $600. It depends on what it needed...and what they put into it. With that train of thought in mind....here is what you need to look at with the type 4 tranny. If you fins one that has damage...like bad transfer case section (gears) or broken tail cone (common) or broken differential (common). Buy it for parts. The entire transfer section can be slaved to another differential...and vica versa. Now...whats important to remember, is that the mainshaft gear stack position ....is shimmed in reference to the differential case dimensions. But...the counter gear cluster shims are set according to the transfer case dimensions. So...if you have a tranny with a cracked case in the transfer section...and swap another case to it...you must know which shims the donor transfer case had in it for the counter gear...and bring them along. If you break the pinion gear...it can be swapped with another...as it splines to the shaft...but the existing shims between the mainshaft gears must stay where they are...as they are based on teh differential case...and the pinion bearing shim on the donor pinion gear must come across along with the TO bearing support tube..because that is what sets the pinion position in relation to the depth of engagement in the ring gear.
In short...if you get a type 4..with a 4 speed. Do not drive it asingle mile...before you tear it down....and find out its condition...and what needs fixing.
A first real easy move..is to pull the pan off of it. Yes...the type 4 four speed has a pan. Look at the counter gear cluster. Its that one piece chunk of gears closest to the lid. If you see any spalling in the roots of the gears on any gear....your days are numbered. If there is no damage to any of the gears.....much can be done to keep it that way.
You will need new needle bearings on teh counter shaft...and a new shaft to run them on. Any competant machine shop can make a new counter gear shaft. Its just a piece of tool steel with a notch in the end. Its less than $100. The bearings....18mm ID X 20mm OD X 22mm length....can be gotten at any reputable bearing dealer. If the inside of the counter gear is rough...You will need bearings with outer shells. Contact me an Iwill give you parts #'s. The next problem is syncros. There are none. I am still llooking to see if there is anything remotely close in the Audi line. But....generally...they can be swapped around if you have a Donor tranny.
The next most important is the differntial and pinion bearings. All common...cept one...but all available. Contact me when you start this...there are particulars about this tranny. Open the differential itself. If there is no spalling or chipping on the spyder gears....you are in great luck..as it can be prevented with simple and easy to get shims. Lastly, only one other set of needle bearings have I been able to find...but generally...none of the others are ever damaged. This tranny can easily be made to be a daily driver for another 100k. But you will be doing it yourself.
Also..bear in mind...there are no special jigs needed for this tranny like all of the other VW types. It is totally unique. Ray
Hey, I had alot of over flow it seemed coming from the front area of my tranny after pulling the pan and cleaning the areas I could see and refilling alittle above the fill hole so I would have a little overflow while putting the plug back in. Does this mean I have a nose cone problem or is that normal for it to do that with the extra fluid? I dont remember ever having it do that on my old one? I put some lucus in with the hypo since I used it in my vw van tranny and it help me out. I actually scanned the old pan seal in my computer and printed it as a templet to cut a new one out of cork. On my old 412 tranny it seemed so strong! I drove the chit out of it banging it out all the time. It also survived being put in reverse at Idle with the e-brake without the clutch in by a friend. It made a grind sound and had a kinda wurry wind sound so I went home and pulled the pan to get the gear teeth chips out but after that it always shifted fine??
p.s. can you mess up the nose cone if the tranny hangs down any with the engine out? bill
The fluid hole at the rear above the big round plug will vent fluid if its overfilled. Thats normal. yes...you can destroy the tail cone by letting the tranny hang on it unsported. It will rarely bend...it will always break. The tranny must always be supported when the engine is out and the tail cone busing is in the rear cross member. If it did not snap the aluminum...then all should still be fine....though the levereag is high enough that it couls cause the tail cone gasket to leak. Ray
Thanks Again Ray for all the great info!! So it's the leverage would torque the nose case and break the seal of the gasket, damn! I always put a jack under the tranny but it did fall off a few times but just hung there, yikes! So the bushing is in the frame member. Thanks again!!! bill
Last edited by vwbill on Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
On my two door the tranny has a mount bar with two rubber mounts to the body where the bell mounts. I was speaking of when the motor is out. Doesnt a bus have that or has it been to long since I played with one,lol! bill
Yes...its supported just like that. The problem is...it depends on how proficient you are at removing theengine. If too many things are in the way, and you can't seem to clear the rear inside apron woth the engine components, you may find yourself removing those bolts. If so...don't let thetranny drop too far. If you put that long tail housing is a bind...you will crack it. The best thing to do...is remove the rear ring of sheet metal from the engine...including the plastic funnel, the oil filler cover the black square thing), the cap and wires..and leave the haner bar and muffler on it. Then you can extract the engine right back to the edge of the body sheet metal which lets the manshaft clear the clutch cover by about an inch...then carefully drop the engine. The tranny and all clutch hosing and shafts...stay in place. Ray
