003 Final Drive Ratios

[wildthings]

I was flipping through my various manuals and saw that the 003 Automatic transmission in the 411-412 has a final ratio of either a 3.67 or 3.91 depending on year and the 003 out of a Type 2 has a final ratio of either a 4.45 or 4.36 depending on the engine cc's. Is anyone running a bus differential in their Type 4? I would think that this might make a spunkier vehicle for driving around town, without having too much negative until you got over 65 MPH or so. The ratio in the 2.0L Vanagon with an automatic is 4.08. The ratio difference does not seem to be made up for in tire diameter, as the tires on my 411 and Bus are nearly the same with the Type 4 being only 1/4 inch (1%) smaller.

Do the Bus and Type for 003 cases mount the same? If not can the internals be swapped?

[raygreenwood]

As far as I can tell, the differential section of the type 2.....is shaped a little different, and mounts at a slightly differnt angle. I would think there might be a few small headaches.
As for the gear ratios....the bus diff will be LESS spunky....not more. The torque band in type 4 engines is actualy built for taller ratios. With a 3.67, 3.73 or 3.91 ratio, it takes less revs to reach speed. It also takes less revs to get off the line.....as it will take 3.91 engine revs for one wheel rotation compared to 4.08 revs per wheel rotation. Its actually a large difference in feel. This is especially noticable on the 004 4 speed which has basically the same final drive ratios as the autos. Without the proper high final drive ratios...the 411/412 is a dog to drive.

What really makes the automatic drive better....is a full tune up...and proper adjustment of the main pressures at the modulator, a cleaning of the valve body, and tightening or replacment of the bands. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, is there any in a pinch option if you cant find another t4 tranny either manual or auto? Bill

[raygreenwood]

The type 3 auto as it is will bolt right up. I had always thought there were slight bell housing issues, but was informed awhile back that they are the sane in mating pattern. You may have to swap out the output stubs flanges if you try to put an early one in.
After that, the next easiest will be a porsche 911 , 901 trannt. It has almost the same dimensions, does not need to have the diff flipped...and has the tail cone in the same location as the 004. Ray

[vwbill]

Hi Ray, is this the Porsche you're talkin about?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... %3AIT&rd=1

p.s Did the wagens only come with autos??

[raygreenwood]

Nope. That is a 914 version of the same basic 901 tranny. It is designed for a mid engine layout so you will have to flop the differential. Then there will be tailcone shifter issues, mounting issues etc. The one you need is from a 911...rear engine just like us.

On this continent, every wagon i have ever heard of came with an automatic. I have never seen one personally that came with one...but have heard ofseveral, probably tourist vehicles bought there and shipped here....or Canadian. But....they came with them in Europe. Also, it is super easy to put one in. All of the drillings,stampings and bracket openings for the parts...are in all of the different models. I have owned two wagons. Both of them I converted to four speeds with the parts from crushed 2 soor models. Ray

[vwbill]

Why I was asking about the wagen was so if you wanted to look for a manual tranny it would most likely have to be from either a 2/4 door car.
I had seen a wagen here near the Dog Park but didnt think the wagens had manuals. Do you actually think you could go to salvage yards and find a 411/412 for a tranny? It seems most of them just crush the cars!
bill
p.s. the biggest problem I had with my T3 auto was that damn filler boot leaking!
p.s.s Is this the same 914 901?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... AMEWA%3AIT
Ray have you seen this info on the porsche tranny?
http://www.rennsportsystems.com/2d.html

[raygreenwood]

I have only seen two type 4 in the junkyard that had a manual tranny. That was ten years go. I bought both trannys. But...as we see...things come out of the woodwork. i would say that an even 50% of those who inherit grannys farm, only to find a 411 parked out back....take them to the junker right away.....just cause if they are not into VW's...they are even less prone to see any particular value to it....so...a few still show up now and then.

This is why everyone MUST take heed. If you find a four speed tranny.......DO NOT drive with it....period!.....until you have stripped it to the core, cleaned it and replaced/repaired the parts that will make it go out.

One of the few things I am sure of anymore...is that I have more experience with these trannys than anyone on this continent...save for a few reclusive people that may exixt that never tell us they exist.
No offense...but the experience on these trannys of ex dealer mechanics....is not impressive. The dealers did not rebuild these. They swapped them out. It would be rare to find anyone who seriously delved into these trannys. If they did...they simply replaced old parts with new...but did not solve inherent problems.

What I'm trying to say by all of that.......is that 100% of all of the 004 trannys I have seen for 411/412.....are potential junk waiting to happen. Yes...you can get a junkyard box and drive it for 100k...no kidding. These were great trannys. But ....because of the things you could have done and should have done at 70k.....when it does break....it will be an irreparable , smoking pile of scrap. If you find a tranny...drive it not until all is corrected. You may not get a second box to experiment with. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey have you auto guys seen these seals on ebay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... egory=6763

Ray, thanks for the reply! Man do we need to pay you to create a diagram and instructions to take to a machine/tranny shop to redo our T4 manual trannys! How else can someone save these things? bill

[raygreenwood]

Hopefully in the next month or two, I will be tearing down of of the ones I have and getting it ready for my car. I was thinking of using my cigital camera to document each step, and then every other picture, type out and insert a page of copy explaining what I did.

When I do this one, I am also going to be checking on the "soundness" of the counter shaft needle bearing replacment I did, wherein I got rid of the stock needle bearings and replaced them with 2mm shorter ones...but that have their own outer race...just like the tranny bearing that goes i the end of your crank. It makes it where you don;t have to remachine the counter gear cluster...which would require several layers of rechroming and hardening..and would never survive.
I will also....if all of my dissecting research as paid off...be installing a clearanced tpe 003 automatic, differential with side shafts, and spyder gears as a replacment...whicj would be a HUGE longevity improvement....or...simply installing the 003 output stubs and spyders into the type 4....Whichever works.

The last part...I have modified a rabbit power steering pump...to put out 10 psi max ...before venting internally. I am thinking of making an external gear oil pump and some hand bent lines...to feed gear oil to the counter gear cluster oil hole.....so the bearings will never wear out...and also to the pinion and diff bearings. It sould be no drag whatsoever on the engine and could mount over by where the AC compressor would go. Ray

[vwbill]

Wow, Ray we need to hire you a assistant! Want else could we donate to help with the documentation? What kinda mem chip does your camera have and mega pix? I would gladly send you a 1m chip like my fuji has if that would help with maybe creating a mini video log! That pump to help with the lubing seems sweet but is there any electric type pump that could also be used like those for drag racers or something else or maybe like a convertible top electric pump? I do like how it would use the ac mount local and be vw parts! bill

[MGVWfan]

What about this instead of an engine-driven PS pump...use an electric fuel pump? If the pressure required is low, you can even use one of those Carter/Airtex 8016 pumps that clicks constantly. I have a spare I can send if you'd like to experiment with it on your manual tranny sometime. I've used one of these pumps to drain 10W30 out of a sump before, and they work OK, even with the higher viscosity of oil versus gasoline. Or one of those Mitsubishi pumps from an old carburetted Honda (constant displacement diagphram type) might work better.

Other manual transmissions used a variety of different internal lube oil pumps that might work here. One that comes to mind was used in the MG Midget/Triumph Spitfire 1.5L. These boxes had other problems that caused them to frag, but the oil pump concept was basically sound. Here's what they used. Ever seen the oil pump for a Tecumseh vertical shaft one-lunger? It's hard to describe, I wish I had an image to post. That's the oil pump BL used on that tranny. There was an eccentric on the output shaft, and the oil pump rode on the eccentric, with a plunger affixed to the case by a ball (to take up the off-angle motion). Maybe an oil pump from an old one-lunger Tecumseh might fill the bill?

My MGB has the original B-Series trans, and it uses a very strange oil pumping arrangement, a spiral groove cut in the outside of a spacer that rides in a boss in the case with very close tolerances. It pumps oil from the tailshaft housing to a drilling in the output shaft. It'd be very hard to duplicate in the T4 manual trans.

[raygreenwood]

MGVW....yep...like you are reading my mind. What would really work the best...is a diaphram type pump like you described. What we are looking for here...is circulation, not pressure. The power steering pump works great to...but has obvious bracketry involved. If you have ever seen teh indide of a power steering pump, they will never wear out. Its just a series of floating vanes in slots on an eccentric hub. The pressure is governed by a spring ball check valve built into the side where the line comes out.

Where circulation is needed the most, is on teh counter shaft. It is one of the deficiencies of this tranny.
For those who have not looked inside their tranny yet...i will describe the problem. The counter saft gear cluster...is that big single fat gear cluster that is immediately in front of you when you pull the pan from the 004 four speed. It is a single machined part/shaft with 4 gears on it. It rides on a single 12+ inch long 18mm shaft. It has a 22mm long by 20 OD and 18id needle bearng in each end of the gear cluster.

The problem is.....that there is a single oiling hole in the center of the shaft between two big gears. It is some 5" from each nedle bearing. Thats not the real problem. Its only about a 2mm hole...so when the oil is thickfrom cold, the viscosity is too high for it to flow into the hole. The next problem is...that the fit of each outer end of the gear face against its thrust washer is tight....so there is no exit for any oil coming into the hole in the center. The needles just sit in teh same old soup and wear out.

So...I took a file and made three relief grooves on either facing end of the shaft. Then polished them. This helps. I also enlarged the oil hole to about 3mm. That helps. What would really help....is a thin flat block of inert plastic...with a half moon shape at the shaft end...and an oil groove in it. This would not actually contact the shaft where the oil hole is...but sit some .010" away from it. A hole drilled in the center would connect at the other end to the oil pump supply. The whole assembly would bolt to the inside of the sump plate so would be in the correct position when you bolted the plate on.
This insures that for 50% of each rotation, while the oil groove is facing the oil hole....that oil ould be pumping through the hole. You would need not more than 1-3 psi. Just good flow.

But I figured...hey...if you are adding apump...why not bend a couple little tubes and supply other critical areas. Like...that big ball bearing in the back of the main shaft...and the differential bearings. This thing would last forever.
The counter shaft on almost every tranny will needto be replaced....period. But its not hard or expensive. Just call mcMaster carr...or any bearing dealer...and order a 1 meter piece of induction hardended 01 tool steel shaft of 18mm. Cut it offto correct length....and have the local machi9ne shop slap it into a lathe and turn a 15mm step at one end and drill a hole 1/2 inch deep at the other so you can thread it for 8mm. Done. The cartridge style needles run about $10 each. Ray

[vwbill]

Wow Ray some awesome research and issue description! What about filing lines in the washers to let the flow out or what about some kinda deflector curved plate that the gears could work off and throw the oil back where you need it like a scoop or a sump area for those areas with maybe drain back holes, maybe it could attach to the bottom pan? I could see making that little hole bigger would help alot! Do they make a special application gear lube that would be lighter and move better but have a better friction rate? Hey what about that ceramic coating that Jake has or someone? Bill

[raygreenwood]

VWbill...what you described...is what I just decribed. The grooves I filed were in the end of the gear instead of the washers. The flat plastic piece does just that...it pushes oil into the hole. Its good you guys get the picture easily. These trannys do not requirte much work if they are not broken. But that work must be done or they will not survive. Ray