torsion bar on 412

[albert]

allo ray , on my 412-73 wagon he d,t, have the torsion bar on the rear suspention , you know the reason for that , we can install on the wagon this option ??? thanks albert

[raygreenwood]

Very good question. I have no idea why they did not put the torsion/anti-sway bar on the wagon/variant. I would think it would need it more than the rest of the other cars.

Yes...it is super easy to install. The hole for the outer link is already on each trailing wishbone. It has a rubber plug in each hole. The two sway bar mounting holes are already drilled...and tapped in the rear crossmember. This is a 20 minute job...if you have the swaybar from either a two door or four door. It makes a large difference in handling.

There were three different bars...all are relatively equal. The earlier ones for four door and two door were straight type bars wof about 15.5-16mm in diameter. I think the tw doors later like 71-73 ..in this country....that means most of them.....were straight and 17mm. All of the later bars are what they called "cranked". They had a bend in them down by the left hand wishbone. I had always thought that it was to add clearance to something like air conditioning lines...but those go over the top of the beam. I later found out...that by speaking to a spring manufacturer....this was a common way of uprating a torsion bar....progressively....while not increasing the diameter.
They added to the effective twisting length by making the "cranked" spot in the bar. So apparently...the later models would have a bit more capacity...but would not be as abrupt of a transition in loading when going through a curve....as just making a thicker stiffer bar.
On a wagon....all of them fit and perform the same.

What does make a FABULOUS difference....being that all of the weight is in the rear of the car, the sway bar is a bit less than adequate (but very well proportioned...it is a good design).......is to add an extra ba if you happen to have two 411/412 bars.

What I did...is I got a brand new set of type 1 sway bar clamps. I modified the rubber a bit to clamp both sway bars together one atop the other....very tightly. Only the upper one is connected to the outer wishbone link. I put a rubber bushing on the ends of the one below...so it is compressed up tight to the top one ...which is the one actually mounted to the frame.

What this does ...is give you exactly twice the sway control...in exactly the same factory progressive proportion. It has done WONDERS for handling...along with the KYB gas adjusts in the rear.
The reason this is needed...is that all of the wight in this car is in the rear. The rear swaybar...though nicely done...is barely adequate....while the front sway bar...is way more than adequate. In a high speed turn, the rear tends to roll at a rate that appears to be roughly twice that as the front. It tends to cause thrust misalignment and rise on one wheel....in the front . this along with the high front end it what gives the 411/412 that "floaty" feelng when going around a curve. This is also why I recommend that if you can save nothing else from a hulk....get the suspension components...especially an extra sway bar. Ray

[Guest]

Excellent analogy!.........next 4dr I see in a boneyard, the anti sway bar is mine.

[Longbeach412]

That was me

[vwbill]

So only the four door and two door 411/412 has sway bars on the rear?
You would think if anyone needed one it would be a wagen!!
So Ray, did you attached the extra(second) sway bar to the bar already in place or next too the orginal sway bar so then there were two? So you can just get a sway bar from a super beetle and add it to the rear to add more force? Is it from the front of the beetle or the rear?bill

[raygreenwood]

The extra swaybar is actually clamped to the swaybar that is bolted into the body and suspension brackets. It is clamped exacatly underneath it...and clamped at technically....four positions. It is clamped nect to each sway bar mount that holds the original bar...and is ckamped by the snubber I installed at each end.

Oh...and I know you will hate this....I thought long and hard before I did it....but I trimmed the pin off of each end of the second swaybar...that would have normally gone into the outer trailing wishbone link...so it would fit up flush.

You must fashing rubber blocks.....which is why I modified type one clamping parts...but discarded the rubber and basically carved the bushings I needed from fours small blocks of urethane.

These rubber blocks should have two 17mm holes...about 1/2" apart on top of each other. You slip your original sway bar through the top holes....work the blocks down to the center section of the bar to sit just inboard of the mounts on the rear beam. Then slip the other two on just inboard of the outer trailing arm links. Then slip the bottom bar through all of the holes underneath.

Its harder than it sounds especially with urethane. So....the best thin to do is acually install it all on the bottom bar first...slit the top holes....snal them onto the top bar...and then wrap the type one sway bar clamps around and tap the top slide clamps on.

Now that my car has arrived back at my place from teh storage unit.....YAY...first time its seen daylight since last march!!!!!......I will be pulling the sway bar off.....and making a quicky cast for the two bars so the urethane will actually fit the type one swaybar clamps with a bunch of grinding. It took me all day to shape the blocks.

A word of warning. The outer trailing wishbone links will be inadequate for the tension. I snapped two of them over a period of time. It is violent when going through a turn... to lose sway control. You could roll the car.

But with a simple block of metal and a grade 8 1/2" bolt and the original bushings and washers...you can make a semi-solid link.

Just collect your sway bars and give me until june. Its one of many thngs that are simple and in the works. Ray

[albert]

thanks ray for your very long information , i d,t know if whirlwind on the h. back cover on the wagon , can make some thing wend you d,t, have swaybar or if we have , if you look on the golf to day , you see vent déflector on the top of h,back cover and he d,t have swaybar ok all the wight is not in the back but i know whirlwind make some thing on the suspention wend you run fast , and at my oppignion the 412 wagon need spécial dimention swaybar if you look the load différence (versus 412 4 door or wagon you have appx 200pound différence for the wagon ) if i look on the vw M,code for the wagon (options ) in europe vw sugest swaybar for 412 taxi car or police 412 car(wagon) but he d,t, geeve the dimention ,were is the exact dimention for the wagon ??? i make look on type 2 swaybar ?? ,, thanks ,albert

[raygreenwood]

Albert....I also would think that the wagon would need a slightly uprated swaybar...both due to the height (increased leverage fpr sway due to top-heaviness) and the weight. But the bar fro the two and four door does bolt right up....and has no problems that I know of...and makes a good improvement. Its simple and better than nothing. I have driven all three models with the same swaybar part # attached. But having one that is rated double the factory.,...is much better.Ray

[albert]

tanks ray,, i try to find on 412--4-d,

[albert]

hi, ray i can send you foto for swaybar instalation from busdepot ,albert

[Chris Hobbs]

Update to rear sway bar installation for the Type 4 wagon: I've been doing a bit of junkyard work on 412s the last couple of months and, keeping this thread in mind, recovered the rear sway bar off a 412 fastback. I did a dry fit underneath my 412 wagon Sunday and sure enough, the 6 holes line up for the mounting points. BUT--there is a problem!

It's the automatic transmission on my 1974 wagon. There is a bracket attached to the transmission case with two 13mm bolts, and it comes down underneath the sump pan right near the rear crossmember. The shift cable passes through it just before entering the transmission. This bracket gets in the way of the sway bar and prevents four of the mounting holes from mating up to the rear crossmember holes. It is quite thick so there is no chance of bending it out of the way. Unless it can be removed there will be no rear sway bar upgrade.

So how did VW do the rear sway bar on the 412 fastback with auto transmission? Omit the bracket? Re-route the cable?

[raygreenwood]

Dang! Its been so long since I had an automatic type 4. Perhaps.....this is what the "cranked bar" is for. I had a standard tranny long before I started looking at the sway bars...so had nothing to compare to for fit. I know my first 411 had an auto and a sway bar. All of the two and four doors had it. The canked section is on the drivers side and may make allowance for this. Most of the two doors had the two doors had teh straight bar and all of them had the manual. But later....in late 73 and al 74, they had the cranked bar.

Also....think about this, how much (distance) is the bracket in the way? Its possible that tehbar can only be installed when the tranny is out. It is also possible that the tranny with its tail bushing flange is too close to the rear crossmember. There is adjustment for this. The rear handger bar bushing slide in slots in the body mountings....fore and aft and sie to side. The whole package can be backed off possibly 1/2". Ray

[Chris Hobbs]

I finally got the 412 back up on ramps to change out the alternator, so I was able to take another long look at what is around the rear crossmember where the rear anti-sway bar would run when installed. Here is a better description of the layout of this problem.

If the bar were mounted in accordance with the pre-tapped mounting holes, it would run just below the rear crossmember and along its rear edge. Roughly speaking.

The sump pan of the auto tranny is directly behind the rear crossmember and extends below it by 1-2 inches. The pan snugs up fairly close to the crossmember. There would still be room (barely) for the anti-sway bar to run in that area between the rear edge of the crossmember and the front edge of the sump pan. IF...the shift cable bracket were not in the way. The bracket is attached to the passenger side of the sump pan and extends 1-2 inches out, taking it over the crossmember and running completely through the space which the anti-sway bar must occupy. The bracket cannot be bent out of the way--it is too thick and the shift cable does not have enough slack to allow it.

It does not look like the 1/2 inch of tranny adjustment that you mentioned would solve the problem. Nor would installing the bar with the tranny out; this is a problem of 2 parts needing to occupy the same space. Your idea about the cranked sway bar is worth checking out. I will have to go back and check out some other junkyard Type 4s to see whether there are any. My uncranked sway bar came out of a 412 fastback where the engine and tranny were already gone, so I was not able to use it as an example.

In the meantime, comments or suggestions are welcome on anything I might have missed.

[raygreenwood]

Ah....then that must really be the difference. I have NEVER found a cranked bar on teh two door fastbacks. I have however...always found cranked bars on my four doors and wagons....which by definition on this continent...were all autos.
I will check the microfiche parts disc and see if there are two part numbers and see what teh offical description of teh two parts is. Ray

[wildthings]

My 72 four door has a cranked bar. The crank dips under the shift cable. You could probably easily use a straight bar is you lowered the two pivot points for the bar an inch or so.