New to me 412 is at its new home!!!

[vwfye]

well, i got the car home yesterday. had one major issue 40 miles from the house and had to leave the car for the evening. the alternator went out and i drove it until the voltage dropped below what the fuel injection could use and still operate. this was at 12:15 the next morning. so i drove the wife and kid home, turned around and went back and got the car parked at this little hotel in the middle of nowhere. took the battery out and hauled it home and put it on the charger. sunday after a full morning, i took the wife, kid and battery back to the hotel in Curtain, OR and hooked it up fired it off and drove it home!

for such an ugly car, the ride is amazing! you can't hear the engine (at all) from the cab (even at 85 mph) and the automatic shifts very smooth! it holds it speeds on 6% grade climbs even. the front trunk is vast! i could lay down up there and close the hood (i'm 220lbs). the rear cargo area, with the back seat folded is flat and plush enough i could camp in it! all and all it is an ugly car on the outside with everything right on the inside! it even comes with a gas preheater. you set the temp on the unit and without the car running, it will warm the cab up in the morning while you finish your routine! the bumpers on it are not chrome... they are aluminumn with chromed overriders and if you look at the pic, you can see that the overriders are rusted out but the bumpers are just oxidized. i gave the car a bath to get all the moss and grime off of it and today after work i will get it titled. i hope they let me keep the original plates on it!

one last note... the car has not been started since 1995! it took about 5 hours to clean up, do the brakes, route fuel line and start! it would have driven the entire 200 mile maiden voyage if the alternator hadn't gone out in it at night in the rain. the autotranny is perfect, the mileage was good (about 24) and it just glides!

so, i traded a rusted out, but perfectly driveable 71 squareback for a non-op, but basically rust free 412 wagon. after 5 hours of labor, and zero $ in parts i had a driveable 412 wagon that went 163 miles on its first trip in 10 years and only stopped due to the electrical system not charging.

I would like to thank Toby and Hal for all the help with the car on Saturday! I would really like to thank my wife, Shannon, for giving up a portion of mother's day to go get the car from Curtin.

[vwfye]

forgot to mention... other than the front bumper being 'sprung on the driver's side, the body is great. the front end is TIGHT! i had the entire thing in the air and we could not get the frontend to show any signs of fatigue, flex, or being loose at all! the pan has ZERO rust!!! the area under the battery is perfect. the only issue with the ride stance is that the rear is sagging a touch, causing the front to look really high. the suspension absorbed bumps, potholes and rough road without so much as a moan, clunk or any wandering. the only wandering was in a major cross wind.

[raygreenwood]

Trust me...your front end is on the way to being shot. They all are. Its just age....and a few flaws. If the ball joints are nice and tight, pull the three bolts loose on each strut, drill a sma;; hole dead center in the dome on each one, on the inside. It will do no harm. Then, using good hardenable sealer, seal the ball joint and the strut to teh steering knuckle.
On the inside...side of the ball joint, you will find a small hole in the casting. Enlarge that and install a standard low profile 6mm grease sert.

Now you can pump these joints full of grease and they will last forevere. Every three years, buy a bus ball joint.....steal the boot and throw the joint in the trash. You are good to go.

If they are still intact, grease the centering rings and do-nuts of the radius rams with synthetic grease. Get new tie rod ends. Get new strut bushings and bearings. Have a bronze idler bushing made....maybe $50.

Generally...there is nothing you can push, pull or check on this suspension that will tell you wether it is tight or loose. The centerlink is always shot just due to age and the fact that it has nylon bushings that absorb water and disintegrate. That part can only be checked by removing it. Same with the idler arm bushing.

Most 412's that have been sitting forever...cruise their first 200 miles felling like a million bucks. That ends quick. Its just parts that need to be replaced. But if you continue driving....you will detsroy things.

Welcome ! You have been warned. Ray

[MGVWfan]

Welcome! Sounds like you've got a good ride there. I envy the mossy but original-looking paint, my '73 412 Variant has a hideous maaco-special from about 10 years ago

Did the "Alternator" light come on? If not, it's possible it's the regulator, but even if it did, you could still have a regulator problem.


Ray's got the right idea, you'll need to replace some stuff in the front end soon, but not to fear, the front end R&R job isn't really that bad to do. Another thing to put in the job jar...replacing the seals on the auto tranny. Until you can, I'd recommend checking the differential oil frequently (weekly if possible) for signs of ATF getting in there, as well as checking the transmission fluid for signs of hypoid lube getting in to the transmission section. I'd also change the engine, diff, and transmission oil ASAP. Remember that the diff uses 75W90 EP gear lube (Hypoid oil), the trans uses Dexron ATF, and the engine uses whatever the manual says (30 or 40 SAE depending on the temp outside), and never the three shall meet. Oh, yeah, also change the engine oil filter ASAP, too. I'd also flush the brake system with clean fluid (my favorite is Castrol LMA DOT 4). Does it have power brakes? A/C? Does it still have the US-spec VWoA "Sapphire" radio? Is the windshield gasket still OK?

Welcome again to the T4 obsession zone, the natives here are very friendly and don't throw dookie or bite (well, except maybe for Deathbus, but we're larnin' him you know I'm pullin yer laig DB!). Ask if you've got a problem, Ray or one of us has probably had the same thing happen before and can help.

[albert]

MG , HAVE POINT ,FOR ALT. with home-meter or voltage tester look if he geve you (on baterie, motor on run ) 14 volts , if not , change voltage régulator 50.$ afther that you see , if your batery go down afther one or tow days wend the car is stop , look the starter busing , he geve me same problem lastweek , the starter rotor come in short-circuit with the ground wend the startor bushing is finish , you buy 12 volts bushing (make attention for 12 volts he have 6 volts bushing to ) and for to remoove this bushing you use 1/2 inchs tap tred you do the job at the hand , and you push new busing in the hole with your starter make attention for d,t dropping steel parts inside the flyweell , for easyer job you remoove passenger tire (rear ) and for to push at the good place the busing you can use hard pice of woods and hamer good light and mirorr ,,good ride with your 412,,,albert

[vwbill]

Congrates on the wagen!! I think the 412 wagen was sweet looking myself and had so many features along with great storage and cargo space! Have to love them when you're cruizen the highway and you can still hear the person next to you,lol! I would do the checks Ray and the guys mentioned! Save you in the long run! Where did you find her and was she in storage? Enjoy Her and hope you will keep the 411/412 aircooled faith! Bill

[type4org]

Ray, you always make it sound like the world is coming to an end unless new owners immediately re-do the front end, but can you give some specific symptoms to look out for?

I have had my 412 wagon since 1993 and put 30,000 miles on it. Apart from tires the only front-end related work has been the idler arm bushing in 2002, which started making an obvious clonking noise on bad roads, and the little ball bearing on top of the drivers side strut (1994), which made the steering behave a little odd.

I still have a little clonking noise off and on and would like the play to be less at the wheel at dead center, but other than that it's handling great - even on the autobahn at 90 mph...

[ecdez]

I saw your post on volksrods and was hoping you would find your way over here.

[vwfye]

thanks for the hellos and good wishes everyone!

hey, stupid question (as i don't have a type 4 repair book yet)... where is the voltage regulator located on the 74 412? i want to see if that is the culprit of my charging issues. yesterday i went out and started the car and had no light! last night i started it again and had the light... it doesn't flicker or change intensity... it is either on or off. thanks!

[Chris Hobbs]

You will find the voltage regulator mounted on the passenger-side rear wall of the engine compartment. Approximately above the alternator and in between the oil dipstick and the air cleaner housing.

[vwfye]

really, i thought that was a relay of some kind! i will check it tonight to see if it is my issue, or the alt itself. can a t-1/2/3 VR be sub'd in the short term?

[raygreenwood]

Of course I make it sound like the world is coming in. I am generally right in this aspect.
What I am trying to impress upon new owners of 411/412...is that these cars...all of them are over 30 years old. The rubber parts...any natural black or Buna -N parts...on ANY vehicle...have a 10 year lifespan design. Thats with "0" miles. Thats just hardening and/or breaking down due to their own composition. Add to that....the extreme length of the suspension components (an effect never duplicated on any other vehicle I have found)....and add to that.... a couple parts whose design is out and out flawed (that would be the idler arm bushing and the centerlink).

Thirty year old rubber, especially the original bonded strut bushings...will be cacked underneath...due to age and skrinkage alone. You DO KNOW by the way...that that cracking is 100% responsible for ripping the bearing out of its swaged socket on the early symmetrical type strut bushing....don't you? It canot be inspected visually...without the car off the ground. Ask sometime...or look in the back posts. I have posted how to inspect for that cracking in the past.

With experience on the type 4...you will discover these things....the hard way. Do you have some secret stash of suspension parts? Doubt it.
You need to correct what IS broken ...now.....or the design of this suspension will destroy parts you can only replace with great effort now (if at all).....and in three years....you may be out of luck. Its called preventive maintenance.

What I am trying to keep from happening is this:....When the idler arm or centerlink are old and trashed....it will...100% of the time....destroy...FIRST, (through vibration) ...the control arm bushings and radius arm centering rings. Do you have spares? Doubt it.
When those go, the car is still drivable...just mushy. It then goes on to destroy the ball joints. Got spares? Doubt it.
If your struts are shot, your ball joints and bushings are on the way. If the strut bushings are shot...the struts carts and balljoints are next.

Until I learned this equation.....I literally replaced every part of the supension on my 412 wagon....three times in 4 years. . Yes...thats ball joints...tie-rod ends, bushings etc.

Your centerlink is shot. Take it out and check it. There is no other way to check it. Trying to check it in teh car shows you nothing. You cannot generate enough force to see the movement in it by turning the wheel by hand. Be ready to rebuild or replace it.

Just a note...not trying to be testy....but 30k miles on a 411/412 is nothing. I quit driving mine as my daily driver three years ago. But..I drove it as my only car from 1990 to 2002. I averaged over 70k miles per year. Bear in mind .....that was my 5th type 4. I have put well over a million miles on these vehicles.

Also....how does your car handle. Are you sure that is how its supposed to handle? In the beginning....I always thought theye handled smoothly but were naturally a little "soft". That is not correct. When parts start to crap out....they will "cascade". As I say....be happy...drive hard and fun.....but you have been warned. Do the maintenance....while you can get the parts. Ray

[raygreenwood]

Of course I make it sound like the world is coming in. I am generally right in this aspect.
What I am trying to impress upon new owners of 411/412...is that these cars...all of them are over 30 years old. The rubber parts...any natural black or Buna -N parts...on ANY vehicle...have a 10 year lifespan design. Thats with "0" miles. Thats just hardening and/or breaking down due to their own composition. Add to that....the extreme length of the suspension components (an effect never duplicated on any other vehicle I have found)....and add to that.... a couple parts whose design is out and out flawed (that would be the idler arm bushing and the centerlink).

Thirty year old rubber, especially the original bonded strut bushings...will be cacked underneath...due to age and skrinkage alone. You DO KNOW by the way...that that cracking is 100% responsible for ripping the bearing out of its swaged socket on the early symmetrical type strut bushing....don't you? It canot be inspected visually...without the car off the ground. Ask sometime...or look in the back posts. I have posted how to inspect for that cracking in the past.

With experience on the type 4...you will discover these things....the hard way. Do you have some secret stash of suspension parts? Doubt it.
You need to correct what IS broken ...now.....or the design of this suspension will destroy parts you can only replace with great effort now (if at all).....and in three years....you may be out of luck. Its called preventive maintenance.

What I am trying to keep from happening is this:....When the idler arm or centerlink are old and trashed....it will...100% of the time....destroy...FIRST, (through vibration) ...the control arm bushings and radius arm centering rings. Do you have spares? Doubt it.
When those go, the car is still drivable...just mushy. It then goes on to destroy the ball joints. Got spares? Doubt it.
If your struts are shot, your ball joints and bushings are on the way. If the strut bushings are shot...the struts carts and balljoints are next.

Until I learned this equation.....I literally replaced every part of the supension on my 412 wagon....three times in 4 years. . Yes...thats ball joints...tie-rod ends, bushings etc.

Your centerlink is shot. Take it out and check it. There is no other way to check it. Trying to check it in teh car shows you nothing. You cannot generate enough force to see the movement in it by turning the wheel by hand. Be ready to rebuild or replace it.

Just a note...not trying to be testy....but 30k miles on a 411/412 is nothing. I quit driving mine as my daily driver three years ago. But..I drove it as my only car from 1990 to 2002. I averaged over 70k miles per year. Bear in mind .....that was my 5th type 4. I have put well over a million miles on these vehicles.

Also....how does your car handle. Are you sure that is how its supposed to handle? In the beginning....I always thought theye handled smoothly but were naturally a little "soft". That is not correct. When parts start to crap out....they will "cascade". As I say....be happy...drive hard and fun.....but you have been warned. Do the maintenance....while you can get the parts. Ray

[MGVWfan]

The voltage regulator is not the same one used on T1/2/3's with generators, so they won't sub in. Standby, I'll work up some testing words and post them...

[MGVWfan]

OK, on testing the regulator...do you have a Haynes or VW shop manual? If so, it'll help in picturing the arrangement of parts.

Here's a link to a set of schematic diagrams...

http://66.34.72.138/index.html

Scroll down to the "Type 4" area and pick your vehicle.

Hang on, this is long, apologies in advance. Read it through a few times, and ask any questions you have.

You'll need a voltmeter, two test leads, and a turn signal lamp with leads on it if you have to go through the whole procedure. Use normal safety precautions, and be sure to disconnect the battery completely when charging, or working on the hot lead.

Usually, one breaks the alternator plus battery terminal and inserts an ammeter to see if the alternator is putting anything out. Since the alternator plus battery lead connects to the starter solenoid battery terminal, and is not accessible anywhere else closer to the alternator, to really test the alternator in the T4 config, you need some way to break the battery plus lead at the battery, and hook in an ammeter while the engine's running (can't put the usual test ammeter in and subject it to starting motor draw), WITHOUT OPENING THE LINE TO THE ALTERNATOR (thus destroying the alternator diodes from high voltage or maybe causing a transient that destroys the EFI computer)...a tall order. I've been doing cars for 30 years and have never seen one of those switches in person, though the Haynes manual references one, and I've heard of folks that have one. There's another way to infer the health of the alternator without breaking the connection.

First, the regulator on the T4 is fed +12V for exciting the field from the alternator itself, from a second set of positive diodes called the exciter trio. In effect, the exciter trio completes its circuit through the main negative diode trio, so by confirming voltage on the exciter line, you're confirming a good exciter trio and negative trio, plus a good rotor, stator, and brush set. The alternator lamp does just that when it goes out after the engine's started, assuming it lit in the first place, since it's fed from the exciter trio on one side, and +12V from the battery (through the ignition switch) on the other. Read on for details.

So, first thing, DISCONNECT THE BATTERY COMPLETELY (needed to prevent transients affecting the EFI computer) and recharge it. When it reads something like normal, say 13.5V, disconnect the charger. Go under the car and make sure the battery positive at the starter solenoid (same place it is on a T3/T1) is tight. If that connection were loose, you'd get poor charging due to the voltage drop, since it's shared with the alternator. Clean the positive and negative terminals on the battery, and the clamps.

Connect the battery positive, then the negative, then check system voltage at the battery. If it's 12.5-13.0 with no load, turn the ignition to the "run" position (not "start" yet) and see if the alternator lamp lights.

If the lamp does not light, you've got a lamp, wiring, or alternator field circuit problem, and that needs to be fixed before proceeding. The lamp is lit when +12V from the battery is on one side with the ignition switch "on", and the other side is effectively grounded through the alternator rotor (field) winding. The small current flow through the lamp is needed to provide a very small magnetic field to start the alternator working, as well as letting you know if the circuit's OK. Start at the regulator. With the ignition switch "on", check for voltage on the brown wire (D-) at the regulator, with the connector still plugged in. It should be at ground potential, and read zero or very, very close to zero. If it reads more than say 0.02 Volt, you've got a poor ground. Try cleaning and retightening the regulator ground screws (the field grounds through the regulator case and that brown wire). If that doesn't make the lamp light, then it's possible you've either got lamp or lamp wiring problems, a regulator with a connection opened up inside, or an alternator field problem. To test the wiring, turn off the ignition, disconnect the regulator three-prong plug, and ground the terminal on the socket that has a blue wire and a red wire going to it. Turn on the ignition switch, and if the lamp's not lit, you have a lamp or lamp wiring issue. Start by checking the bulb (to do that, you have to remove the clock, two knurled nuts on the rear and it comes out). If the lamp tests open (ohmmeter test), any of the other indicator lamps that still lights will work in its place. If the lamp is OK, it's a wiring issue somewhere between the lamp and the regulator. When you get the lamp to light with the jumper to ground at the regulator, pull the jumper and reconnect the regulator (with ignition "off"!), and try it again.

Assuming you got the alternator lamp to light, proceed with voltage testing. Connect your voltmeter to the ignition coil "+" lead (black, goes to terminal 15) to read system voltage while you're in the engine bay. Start the engine, and go back and check the voltage. If it reads 12.8V and slowly increasing, great. Watch it for a while, and after 5-10 minutes (if things are working OK) it should top out around 13.8V (the Haynes manual says 14V, BTW). If it does, try turning on the lights to see if the voltage stays relatively constant (a constant drop of 0.1V or so under load is no problem). If it stays constant, you should be OK. If not, you may still have a regulator or alternator problem. If the alternator lamp is still lit even after the engine is started, that's a good secondary sign of problems.

Bypass the regulator next and see if the alternator produces juice when energized from another source. To limit the max output (and avoid frying sensitive components in the EFI), limit the current flowing to the alternator field (and therefore alternator output) by using a #1134 turn signal lamp (single filament) as a dropping resistor. Pull the regulator connector, and connect the turn signal lamp (shell to one side, tip to the other) between the ignition coil "+" terminal (black wire) and the regulator connector's green wire (DF). Ground the regulator's brown wire to complete the circuit. Turn on the headlamps (to provide a load in case the alternator is especially frisky), start the engine, and check system voltage. If it's now above 12.5V and rising, stop the engine and replace the regulator. If it's above 14V, stop the engine IMMEDIATELY and replace the regulator (you've got a frisky alternator!). If it's below 12.5V and dropping, first turn off the headlights and see if it starts rising, if so the alternator is most likely OK, but you should have it bench-tested anyway to be sure it's not got a weak diode . If turning off the headlights did not cause the voltage to start rising, you need to pull the alternator and replace it