rear suspension on 71super....

surfbug11 · Post by **surfbug11** » Tue May 31, 2005 6:31 pm

Hi,

I am going to put new shocks and a sway bar on the back of my super....

kyb gr-2's and a topline sway bar, good choices?

do I need those rear bushings.....torsion bar thingys?

Also, are there any other bushings in the rear?

and....the shocks I have on now, have some play along the bolt....the lower mounting bolt, I can slide the chock back and forth.....is this normal?

thanks

big al

surfbug1

72super · Post by **72super** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:04 pm

Make sure that if you put a sway bar on the rear, you put a larger sway bar on the front, otherwise youll screw up the suspension balance.

It would be a good time to check/replace your rear bushings, GR-2's are great shocks, but if you want a stiffer shock KYB Gas-A-Just's work too.

surfbug11 · Post by **surfbug11** » Tue May 31, 2005 7:25 pm

what are the rear bushings? and where are the located.......in the center of the car, on the inside of the rear control arm......or, on the outside of the rear control arm.....

where is the torsion bar? is this where the rear bushings are....???

72super · Post by **72super** » Tue May 31, 2005 8:58 pm

I have never really done anything to my rear suspension other than replace the shocks, so I don't have any personal experience. However, to figure out what everything is, I suggest buying a Bentley official manual for your car.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=29925

This post should be very informative to you.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:56 pm

Please note that I do not fully understand the subject matter, I don't own a super beetle, nor have I been racing. So please take my responce for what it is opinion based in what I've read, not experience.

Odd thing is that often I hear people give advice assuming that a bug has oversteer, which is definatly true in the case of early swing axle bugs. But, I'm not to sure when it comes to the later BJ/IRS or even the super beetles.

http://aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/ ... ndling.htm

This article although not specific to supers the irs is the same and should be read. But in the article is says that the BJ/IRS had understeer.

"The first test at the track was interesting. I could immediately corner faster on gentle turns than the best with the Swingaxle, and the takeoff from a standing start was much better as the whole contact patch of the tire was on the ground due to the IRS. However my main problem was in tighter corners; the car simply wanted to go straight ahead, massive understeer."

so I'd wait to see what others have done, and their experience. I'd assume oversteer because of the weight bias to the rear of the car, but depending on what other owners may have done it's hard to say. Or better yet drive your car, testing its limits, and determine what would be best for you.

BTW if I were you I'd probably check all of the bushings at the rear. In the trailing arm pivot and at the end of the torsion tubes.

Good luck
Rip

72super · Post by **72super** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:51 am

He was probably getting more understeer from the fact that his rear was gripping a lot harder, so his front didn't seem to pull like it used to.

Bugs do indeed have a good deal of oversteer, I put mine on its roof to attest to that. Regardless, I would rather have the rear end break loose (oversteer) than the front end start plowing (understeer).

Attempting to balance the steering with just a rear sway bar would not be a wise decision IMO. I would rather stiffen both front and rear bars, then adjust ride height, camber, and spring rate to get proper handling.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am

that's what I figured, but looking at his setup couldn't really figure out how his front end was losing traction. I don't remeber if he started from stock. ehh?

72super · Post by **72super** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:32 am

From reading the article, his IRS pan was apparently stock, other than having added rigidity (which could technically cause understeer) and stiffer shocks. It is possible that his front springrate became too stiff when he upgraded both front and rear shocks. A too-stiff front will prevent proper weight transfer to the front tires for grip when turning.

This is all technical speculation. I don't have any track time, only a lowered superbeetle with a dented roof, and countless hours of tuning time on Gran Turismo 2, 3, and recently 4.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:56 am

72super wrote:... and countless hours of tuning time on Gran Turismo 2, 3, and recently 4.

yea me too, except my bug has a smashed front end, swing axles, and way too slow. But, the cars in Gran Turismo never have that problem. It's almost funny slaming into a pilar with an indy car going +200mph and just drop gear and start moving again.

libila · Post by **libila** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:00 pm

Rip wrote:
72super wrote:... and countless hours of tuning time on Gran Turismo 2, 3, and recently 4.
yea me too, except my bug has a smashed front end, swing axles, and way too slow. But, the cars in Gran Turismo never have that problem. It's almost funny slaming into a pilar with an indy car going +200mph and just drop gear and start moving again.

That's why Forza is better

For the topic starter, check out www.superbeetlesonly.com for more help. They are a Super B specific site and there are a couple guys that race/have raced them on there.

72super · Post by **72super** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:43 pm

Forza is fresh meat, but it's only everything that GT4 isn't. Not to mention Forza has 1/3 the amount of cars, over half of those street cars.

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:50 pm

72super wrote:
This is all technical speculation. I don't have any track time, only a lowered superbeetle with a dented roof, and countless hours of tuning time on Gran Turismo 2, 3, and recently 4.

No GT ;-) or track time, but on the street, 7/8" front bar, drop 2 1/4 front, 2 outer splines in back, 195/65s rear, 175/60 front on mexi-chromies works great.
GOOD urethane bushings all around, the poly-graphite ones if they are available, the taiwanese junk deforms pretty quick.

Sturdy kafer-brace and strut brace seems to tighten things up quite a bit too.

Keep the rear end soft and steer with right foot. Requires Motor.

My sons bug is more "fun" than my 914 LE with dual bars.

For Auto-X, a rear bar might make sense.

surfbug11 · Post by **surfbug11** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:54 pm

hi ....

hey piledriver....what does two outer splines mean/refer to?

I am putting topline bushings in the front.....not doing any bushings in the back yet....too lazy to pull all the rear original bushings out....hahaha

hopefully the rear bar and new gr2's in the rear will help...or should I do the gas adjust kyb.s........flip of the coin.....

and, what is a kafer brace? I have a strut brace already...how do I set that thing up? tighten the brace first, then tighten the strut bushing plates under the hood, right?

thanks

big al

surfbug1

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:14 am

I preloaded OUT, as when cornering, the most severe loads are IN. This way the stress gets distributed.

Go with the GR-2s. The gas ones in back remove fillings.
Gas inserts IMHO usually OK up front, as long as you are dropping it anyway.
(Gas strut inserts will jack you front end up some)

You cannot get power to the ground if you have tires in the air.. unless you have a posi diff of course.
A soft rear suspension will provide the best "grip". The rear sway bar can help or hurt.
Do everything else first, only add it if you WANT the ass end to come around easier.
That is (usually) NOT what you want.

The "splines"... are on the torsion bars. There are different #s of splines on the inner and outer ends, 2 splines outer is ~2" ride height, inner, a little more or less., cant remember.
By "splitting the difference" you can get "in between heights" (up 2 inner, down 3 outer etc) Doing it the first time sucks, after that it's easy.
(this is how you drop you rear end...)

Preferably get with a buddy who has done it before, preferably recently.

To do this, you need a GOOD set of jack stands + a rolling floor jack + good prybars, or the special modified bug jack that VW used to sell for this.

I'm sure there are instructions floating around the web to adjust ride height on a bug, just remember those springs are
holding up a CAR, and that force ithey store is amazing potentially hand removing.

A Kafer brace... primary mission in life is as a frame horn brace.

...probably originally developed in Germany for the "Kafer Cup" Super Beetles, thus the name.
(Think Golf Cup... VW sponsored--- everyone's in a HEAVILY modified bug, road racing, fairly wild and evenly matched races... Sadly a Europe only thing)

This will protect your transmission, *completely* stop wheel hop given solid mounts, and a few other "nice" things. No rear support bar required.
You can buy one, or make one.

One of my first visits to these forums, some guys were talking about making one like this...
I don't know if they ever did, but I made on in a couple of hours, wrote up/shot a little how-to Tuna posted on his site.

http://www.tunacan.net/t4/howto/kaferbrace/

If you are even remotely handy, and preferably have a welder, this will run you ~$60, and is almost beyond bullet proof.
Even if you just have ears welded on at a muffler shop, maybe $80.
Commercial ones are much nicer, and run ~2-3 bills. This one is probably stronger. My welding really sucks.

This is my sons car, we worked on it as a project. It's so much fun, it is probably illegal.
(currently stripped for a proper bodywork/paint, resting comfortably in his garage)

You could probably figure out how to do it WITHOUT welding, and add to the how-to.

surfbug11 · Post by **surfbug11** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:03 pm

thanks pile driver...............

I will go gr02/////ssssss

gr2's

I LIKE the idea of the ass end swinging out.......so, I might just put on the sway bar.....

I am not auto crossing the car...just messing around....

so, ass end out, fast off ramp over steer to the lock....

FUN!!!!!!!!!!

do all the bushings in the back need replacing?

it looks complicated....

I guess I could just put on what I have....try it out....then decide to enjoy or spend more............

we know what the answer to that one is....