I was wonderng if ALL type 4s had the Front Disc/Rear Drum configuration? I've owned Bugs & a Type 3 Fastback (all drum brakes) and I thought the braking performance of the type 3 marginal and the Bug horrible. What's your opinion of the brakes on the type 4? Any better/worse years? Any worthy aftermarket mods?
--Dave
Brake Questions
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The brakes on the type 4 are excellent! That being said....outside of my own cars...I have never gotten my hands on a type 4...wherin the brakes were properly worked out. Its kinda like the automatic transmission....its actually an excellent piece of equipment on these cars....but short of the original owner of a given car.....99% of us have never driven a 411/412 with a "new" properly adjusted tranny...so as a "class"...we have developed the opinion that the autobox was a dog. Like the brakes....it aint so.
There are a couple of hassles. I will go down the list.
First, the master cylinder. If you get a NOS one from the shelf, chances are it will be over a decade old. There is a very high chance that seals have taken a set and the life will be short. If you have a decent cylinder...you can steal the seals from a type 3 cylinder or a late rabbit....but seals and compensation port valves only (the little brass flap valves) . You must keep the original pistons. You can lightly hone the cylinder to get rid of rust. Do not oversize it by more than about.002". You just want to get rid of any rust rings or pits. Then...you must lap it smooth inside...with no less than 1000 grit sandpaper. NO HONING marks....period! They tear up the seals. This is one of the most common causes of low performance and short life.
It is critical that you get the rubber bungs back into the top for the fluid fill tubes...correctly...or else they block the compensation ports. In fact...many do from the factory. I install the grommets...then carefully notch them with a sharp exacto to make sure the fluid flows smoothly.
Next thing. Make sure the rotors are smooth and straight. I cross drilled and chamfered mine...and it made at least a 15% improvement in hot braking. High quality wheel bearings (no Chinese wheel bearings...short life)...500+ degree drop point grease and adjustment with a dial gauge..are mandatory.
The brakes were good on all the type 4's but the calipers and rotors after August 0f 72 were better. They were thicker and the rotor has a strengthening ring around the center bearing pilot that keeps it from flexing so much. It is quieter than the early models and wears the pads less. Also the later pads are thicker.
It is true...tha the early model 411 used the same rotoras the late model type 3....but...it technically used a different caliper. The type 3 had the same problem with its rotors...that being that they flex fronm the bearing pilot, on hard braking...causing slight misalignment of the caliper/piston face to rotor. The late type 3 had a unique set-up in its caliper. It had a pin that went into a lock in the center of the piston. When the rotor flexed....it generally caused the piston to tip slightly in the bore...causing it to temporarily lock....losing pressure function. So....the pin and spring lock in the late type 3 models, allowed some flexibility of the pistons alignment...so no locking. But...I have never seen this pin set up on any of the 411's with early rotors. That does not mean that it did not come from the factory....I'm just not positive it did. But...you can put late type 3 calipers right onto 411's. To put either a 411 caliper/disc set up on a 412 or a 412 set up on a 411...you must take the steering knuckles, rotors, calipers and pads as well. If you are taking parts from a 412 to a 411....grab the control arms too...as along with the late steering knuckles....they had an extra 5* of static castor machined into them...which is good for handling.
Drums....the brazilian ones are Junk. They are made ok...but 50% of them have the lug bolt holes drilled after the braking surface is ground...and they are not concentric...giving 50% of the drums a permanent warp. Check what you get carefully. The German made, two piece drums it came with are the best.
The brazilian rear wheel cylinders are excellent...I have had no problems.
Get mintex shoes for the rear..same as atype 3.
By the way...the front pad selection will make or break you. It is hard to go wrong with repco metalmaster pads. No 411 or 412 EVER...EVER used organic non-metallic pads...ever. The more metal the better . The rotors are thick and unventilated. They get very hot. They will waste cheap pads. Then go to Pep boys and then ask for a pad shim kit for a 914 from raybestos. Rough up the back of your pads with a dremel and sanding wheel and install these self adhesive pads. They are $8. Excellent.
Your calipers should have new pins, springs and the stock anti-rotation plates.
The important things on these brakes systems..is that they require very very close adjustment of pedal free play. They also will need to be bled...at least 3 times from total empty.....with a couple days of driving in between. The adjustment of the rear brakes is critical to getting proper bleeding.
A great....great upgrade...is to use teflon/stainless braided replacement lines for the brakes lines. they are now cheaper than stock rubber...and give much better pedal.
Brake fluid choice is critical also. Use the highest WET boiling point fluid you can find. Dry boiling point is 100% meaningless...all fluid is considered "wet"...within 6 weeks of install.
Bosch super blue, Castrol LMA (best all around wet temperature capability with max moisture absorption), ATE blue, Lockheed...all good. Don't get cheap on this. The fluid gets HOT in this system.....and will cause fade. the cross ventilation helps.
In standard city driving....just like the type 3...you will need to adjust a daily drivers brakes...every 4-5 weeks.
This car has the best brakes of any ACVW. They are the same down to the last part numder as the front end of a 914.
All of that being said....I have found that the rear outer bearing seal cover of the type 4 and the type 3 are the same. The drum and bolt pattern are the same. Therefore....the bolt on rear castings for a type 3 rear disc brake kit will bolt right up....with a couple minor mods. You will need to use the type 4 rear stub axles ....with the outer edge turned down a few mm in a lathe...to fit into either a saab 900 rear disc...or a 914 late rear disc.
That being said....I have been undecided as to whose kits to buy. The CB performance kit has decent kelsey hayes calipers...the bracket is cast aluminum...which I have doubts about its rigidity. I have seen a few other kits in the backs of mags for the type 3.....that use nodular iron brackets...those should be stiffer. You will not get any better braking out of the rear discs...but you will get less fade...and no adjustments. If you get rid of the brake proportioning valve and put on an aftermarket one....and cross drill the rear rotors...you will get better performance. Ray
There are a couple of hassles. I will go down the list.
First, the master cylinder. If you get a NOS one from the shelf, chances are it will be over a decade old. There is a very high chance that seals have taken a set and the life will be short. If you have a decent cylinder...you can steal the seals from a type 3 cylinder or a late rabbit....but seals and compensation port valves only (the little brass flap valves) . You must keep the original pistons. You can lightly hone the cylinder to get rid of rust. Do not oversize it by more than about.002". You just want to get rid of any rust rings or pits. Then...you must lap it smooth inside...with no less than 1000 grit sandpaper. NO HONING marks....period! They tear up the seals. This is one of the most common causes of low performance and short life.
It is critical that you get the rubber bungs back into the top for the fluid fill tubes...correctly...or else they block the compensation ports. In fact...many do from the factory. I install the grommets...then carefully notch them with a sharp exacto to make sure the fluid flows smoothly.
Next thing. Make sure the rotors are smooth and straight. I cross drilled and chamfered mine...and it made at least a 15% improvement in hot braking. High quality wheel bearings (no Chinese wheel bearings...short life)...500+ degree drop point grease and adjustment with a dial gauge..are mandatory.
The brakes were good on all the type 4's but the calipers and rotors after August 0f 72 were better. They were thicker and the rotor has a strengthening ring around the center bearing pilot that keeps it from flexing so much. It is quieter than the early models and wears the pads less. Also the later pads are thicker.
It is true...tha the early model 411 used the same rotoras the late model type 3....but...it technically used a different caliper. The type 3 had the same problem with its rotors...that being that they flex fronm the bearing pilot, on hard braking...causing slight misalignment of the caliper/piston face to rotor. The late type 3 had a unique set-up in its caliper. It had a pin that went into a lock in the center of the piston. When the rotor flexed....it generally caused the piston to tip slightly in the bore...causing it to temporarily lock....losing pressure function. So....the pin and spring lock in the late type 3 models, allowed some flexibility of the pistons alignment...so no locking. But...I have never seen this pin set up on any of the 411's with early rotors. That does not mean that it did not come from the factory....I'm just not positive it did. But...you can put late type 3 calipers right onto 411's. To put either a 411 caliper/disc set up on a 412 or a 412 set up on a 411...you must take the steering knuckles, rotors, calipers and pads as well. If you are taking parts from a 412 to a 411....grab the control arms too...as along with the late steering knuckles....they had an extra 5* of static castor machined into them...which is good for handling.
Drums....the brazilian ones are Junk. They are made ok...but 50% of them have the lug bolt holes drilled after the braking surface is ground...and they are not concentric...giving 50% of the drums a permanent warp. Check what you get carefully. The German made, two piece drums it came with are the best.
The brazilian rear wheel cylinders are excellent...I have had no problems.
Get mintex shoes for the rear..same as atype 3.
By the way...the front pad selection will make or break you. It is hard to go wrong with repco metalmaster pads. No 411 or 412 EVER...EVER used organic non-metallic pads...ever. The more metal the better . The rotors are thick and unventilated. They get very hot. They will waste cheap pads. Then go to Pep boys and then ask for a pad shim kit for a 914 from raybestos. Rough up the back of your pads with a dremel and sanding wheel and install these self adhesive pads. They are $8. Excellent.
Your calipers should have new pins, springs and the stock anti-rotation plates.
The important things on these brakes systems..is that they require very very close adjustment of pedal free play. They also will need to be bled...at least 3 times from total empty.....with a couple days of driving in between. The adjustment of the rear brakes is critical to getting proper bleeding.
A great....great upgrade...is to use teflon/stainless braided replacement lines for the brakes lines. they are now cheaper than stock rubber...and give much better pedal.
Brake fluid choice is critical also. Use the highest WET boiling point fluid you can find. Dry boiling point is 100% meaningless...all fluid is considered "wet"...within 6 weeks of install.
Bosch super blue, Castrol LMA (best all around wet temperature capability with max moisture absorption), ATE blue, Lockheed...all good. Don't get cheap on this. The fluid gets HOT in this system.....and will cause fade. the cross ventilation helps.
In standard city driving....just like the type 3...you will need to adjust a daily drivers brakes...every 4-5 weeks.
This car has the best brakes of any ACVW. They are the same down to the last part numder as the front end of a 914.
All of that being said....I have found that the rear outer bearing seal cover of the type 4 and the type 3 are the same. The drum and bolt pattern are the same. Therefore....the bolt on rear castings for a type 3 rear disc brake kit will bolt right up....with a couple minor mods. You will need to use the type 4 rear stub axles ....with the outer edge turned down a few mm in a lathe...to fit into either a saab 900 rear disc...or a 914 late rear disc.
That being said....I have been undecided as to whose kits to buy. The CB performance kit has decent kelsey hayes calipers...the bracket is cast aluminum...which I have doubts about its rigidity. I have seen a few other kits in the backs of mags for the type 3.....that use nodular iron brackets...those should be stiffer. You will not get any better braking out of the rear discs...but you will get less fade...and no adjustments. If you get rid of the brake proportioning valve and put on an aftermarket one....and cross drill the rear rotors...you will get better performance. Ray
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Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
I like em!
I thought the T3 brakes on my fasty(disc/drums) were good and only drove my brothers squareback one time but felt good. My beetle and my brothers did seem to be a stomper,lol, but I stopped! I think the 412 brakes are great and have tried them in a few scary moves with my first 412 but I must say that car was my sister's before me and she had a fade away problem once where she did the rear ender. I always was checking the brakes and adjusting them and bleeding them because of that so I felt good with them and never had that problem! bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
I agree with Longbeach. For major mods...there is little that needs to be done on these brakes. There are a coupel of small issues that plague them though.
Many people who own 411/412's either get happy with excessive pedal travel...even though the car stops great, or they notice that the travel is high and can never seem to get rid of it.
Some of this is due to the bleeding difficulties in this car. The brake hoses are circuitous. You need to bleed from a total rebuild...numerous times.
A lot of this is also in the details of rebuilding. I ahve found that from teh factory, the master cylinder was just adequate in volume. Not too small mind you...just about right. There is not a lot of reserve in its volume. So...if it takes just a split second for the compensating port valves to close, a bit of pressurization capablity is lost.
To do a top notch rebuild of thes units.....as noted, the cylinders must be smooooooth. They should have no honing marks or rust pits at all.
Then...I strip the pistons and take the brass flap valves and lap them smoogth and flat on a glass smooth Arkansas knife sharpening stone. Then the seating areas on the pistons are treated to a lapping as well.
The calipers...in order to be balanced in their movement....I clean those meticulously on rebuild. I then actually make a flap wheel of a dowel with a slot in it. I wind around it...a roll of 600 grit wet/dry....and smooth the insides. Then finish with 800 or 1000...then 2000 git wet dry.
The pistons ....which are actually the sealing points.....I polish to a mirror finish, starting with 000 steel wool and finishing with 2000 grit.
Adjustent of the brake push rod should be tighter than factory spec, but still with just enough clearance.
I bleed the system with shoes in the rear...locked against teh drums, then back them off later. This is a big deal.....as you will find that adjustment is never quite right for bleeding....especially when using brazilian drums. they are always slightly warped...leaving a hair bit of slack in the rear adjustment. Thats OK for driving with....but the rears bleed better if you can lock the shoes up...so the pistons have no room to move. The movement of the is pistons takes too much of the enegy of the fluid away while bleeding...and it gives a slight "push-me-pull-you" affect....slowing bleeding.
The only other real problem, is that since they put the mastercylinder under the dash.....it tends to hold moisture because there is no air stream blowing across it. The moisture causes condensation under the boot. All of these easily succumb to rust ridging at the rear of the master cylinder, causing bypas of fluid and air, in a very short time. Its worth it to once or twice a year, pop the boot loose and swab around with some WD-40 on a Q-tip.
The other mods I listed...cross drilling and teflon brake lines are just icing on the cake. You should be able to stop hard when all is done...with about 2.5" of pedal o these cars. Ray
Many people who own 411/412's either get happy with excessive pedal travel...even though the car stops great, or they notice that the travel is high and can never seem to get rid of it.
Some of this is due to the bleeding difficulties in this car. The brake hoses are circuitous. You need to bleed from a total rebuild...numerous times.
A lot of this is also in the details of rebuilding. I ahve found that from teh factory, the master cylinder was just adequate in volume. Not too small mind you...just about right. There is not a lot of reserve in its volume. So...if it takes just a split second for the compensating port valves to close, a bit of pressurization capablity is lost.
To do a top notch rebuild of thes units.....as noted, the cylinders must be smooooooth. They should have no honing marks or rust pits at all.
Then...I strip the pistons and take the brass flap valves and lap them smoogth and flat on a glass smooth Arkansas knife sharpening stone. Then the seating areas on the pistons are treated to a lapping as well.
The calipers...in order to be balanced in their movement....I clean those meticulously on rebuild. I then actually make a flap wheel of a dowel with a slot in it. I wind around it...a roll of 600 grit wet/dry....and smooth the insides. Then finish with 800 or 1000...then 2000 git wet dry.
The pistons ....which are actually the sealing points.....I polish to a mirror finish, starting with 000 steel wool and finishing with 2000 grit.
Adjustent of the brake push rod should be tighter than factory spec, but still with just enough clearance.
I bleed the system with shoes in the rear...locked against teh drums, then back them off later. This is a big deal.....as you will find that adjustment is never quite right for bleeding....especially when using brazilian drums. they are always slightly warped...leaving a hair bit of slack in the rear adjustment. Thats OK for driving with....but the rears bleed better if you can lock the shoes up...so the pistons have no room to move. The movement of the is pistons takes too much of the enegy of the fluid away while bleeding...and it gives a slight "push-me-pull-you" affect....slowing bleeding.
The only other real problem, is that since they put the mastercylinder under the dash.....it tends to hold moisture because there is no air stream blowing across it. The moisture causes condensation under the boot. All of these easily succumb to rust ridging at the rear of the master cylinder, causing bypas of fluid and air, in a very short time. Its worth it to once or twice a year, pop the boot loose and swab around with some WD-40 on a Q-tip.
The other mods I listed...cross drilling and teflon brake lines are just icing on the cake. You should be able to stop hard when all is done...with about 2.5" of pedal o these cars. Ray
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
That MC rusting thing is still puzzling me. Every car I've ever had has a MC with one end sealed up somehow (either by a brake booster, or a firewall), and they don't rust. The '76 Duster in the driveway has a cast iron MC, and no rust up in the bore. Maybe part of it is that every other MC (other than the Duster and various 60's MoPars) I've dealt with is cast from aluminium, anodized after machining.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot to pass on this little trick. To get the rear wheel cylinder to max travel without altering the adjustment, put the parking brake on hard. I used to do this with my '67 Anglia to help bleed the rears, and it works as well as tightening the adjusters up full.
BTW, it's also a way to get better pedal feel with worn shoes between adjustments, pull the parking brake up a bit whilst applying the brakes. Old British car owner's trick
.
BTW, it's also a way to get better pedal feel with worn shoes between adjustments, pull the parking brake up a bit whilst applying the brakes. Old British car owner's trick
.Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The problem with the master cylinder rusting, is that there is a lot of back ad forth air into the boot at the back due to pushing in and out. There is no airflow under the dash...so condensation just sits in teh back of the cylinder. You would think that rust would be worse on a type 1,2,3...with the cylinder don under the front end and out in the open....but its not, because airflow across there gets rid of the moisture.
In 411/412's...that have leaky woindow gaskets....your master cylinder can die within 3 months.
been there...done that...several times.
I have used lots of aluminum master cylinders. I don't like them at all. They are much more prone to corrosion and galvanic action where they are mated to the body. They also score easily if they happen to get hot. I have had a least on that swelled up enough with heat...to lock the piston. Thank god it was a clutch master. Ray
In 411/412's...that have leaky woindow gaskets....your master cylinder can die within 3 months.
been there...done that...several times. I have used lots of aluminum master cylinders. I don't like them at all. They are much more prone to corrosion and galvanic action where they are mated to the body. They also score easily if they happen to get hot. I have had a least on that swelled up enough with heat...to lock the piston. Thank god it was a clutch master. Ray
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Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
I also need to modify my earlier statement about the "EXCELLENT" breaks. By that, I meant the function and performance of the brakes. As to the layout and components, I'd have to say that placing the MC inside the car is bezzar and, IMHO, it must be relocated and probably, modified for better reliability and durability. Still, the stopping of the car is 1st class by any standards. Just clering things up a bit.
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Funny...31 years of messing about with aluminum MC's, no problems with galvanic corrosion here. Even the old Anglia had aluminium MC's, went through seals like crazy until I found out that US brake fluid ate the seals up 
(has to do with the rubber compound Girling used) and switched to Castrol LMA, then no problems. MoPars, MG, Yamahas, all with aluminium MC's, no problems. I have heard of folks having trouble with British aluminium MC's if you hone past the anodized finish in the bore, then you do get corrosion like nobody's business.
(has to do with the rubber compound Girling used) and switched to Castrol LMA, then no problems. MoPars, MG, Yamahas, all with aluminium MC's, no problems. I have heard of folks having trouble with British aluminium MC's if you hone past the anodized finish in the bore, then you do get corrosion like nobody's business.Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yep you are correct about the anodizing. That is most likely the factor that caused those I have had...to fail. The real key in quality anodized aluminum cylinders...is to do all machining FIRST...then annodize. If you machine later....where the annodizing is gone...like in bolt holes or contact points that are not gasketed....you get problems.
The real problem with aluminum...depending on where its installed, is that when it gets hot it expands. If it expands too much...the parts score each other. Once you score the anodizing....any moisture starts trouble.
I was stunned on my Saab to see what ATE made for the clutch master. It was aluminum. It was clear anodized...no color. But, the real problem is that the master fluid reservoir had no basic filter in the cap. Lots of dust over the years got in. The grit is what ground lies in te cylinder. As it corrodes on that thin wall cylinder....is caused the cylinder to split from the pressure Damnest thing I ever saw....but I have found a handful like it in the junkyards.
My aversion to aluminum cylinders....I must admit...come more from aluminum anodized air cylinders than hydraulic ones. One piece of dust....and its toast. Unless you get anodized cylinders re-laped and then reanodized....they are not rebuildable. Ray
The real problem with aluminum...depending on where its installed, is that when it gets hot it expands. If it expands too much...the parts score each other. Once you score the anodizing....any moisture starts trouble.
I was stunned on my Saab to see what ATE made for the clutch master. It was aluminum. It was clear anodized...no color. But, the real problem is that the master fluid reservoir had no basic filter in the cap. Lots of dust over the years got in. The grit is what ground lies in te cylinder. As it corrodes on that thin wall cylinder....is caused the cylinder to split from the pressure
Damnest thing I ever saw....but I have found a handful like it in the junkyards.My aversion to aluminum cylinders....I must admit...come more from aluminum anodized air cylinders than hydraulic ones. One piece of dust....and its toast. Unless you get anodized cylinders re-laped and then reanodized....they are not rebuildable. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Ray,raygreenwood wrote:
Therefore....the bolt on rear castings for a type 3 rear disc brake kit will bolt right up....
That being said....I have been undecided as to whose kits to buy. Ray
If the bolt patterns are the same, a 944 type1 rear disk set-up will fit as well
I've had those on my 1303 (stock front 'Ghia' disks) and on my type3 squareback (also with stock front disks), both with stock mastercylinder and they always work GREAT in all respects. Plus a 944 set-up is not expensive...and you can use all sorts of cool wheels in all off-sets
Just a thought...
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
