Clutch Master

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:34 am

Can't sleep....Loose ends never seem to end....Looking for a clutch master....can't seem find mine. Just recently liquidated loads T2 splitwindow stuff and I shudder to think it might have ended up.... Anyway, it's not here. Motivated buyer here still without a running 412. Uber are you still stock pile'in parts for the 4sp? Or might you have a source? Any help will be appreciated.

Thrilled about the evolution of STF and the possible 411/412 tech pages to come. Can't wait to get started on the front end rebuild. If only I could get it to move.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:42 pm

Clutch master? Damn, I'm forgetting what I have at this point, I'll check... I don't think I have any new masters themselves, but I think I could spare a rebuild kit at least. Don't forget Ray's, I believe, was it Vanagon clutch master solution?

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:06 pm

Ah, therein lies the rub. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I've tried the vanagon solution and the light bulb never went off. I do know I'm a visual person. Does anyone have pictures of the vanagon workaround? Much like the SB brake master solution from back posts, I've decided to rebuild old stock. Again any help would be appreciated. Those kits would be great, thanks Uber.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:40 pm

I have rebuild kits, but no actual extra master cylinders right this second. I will probably be parting some of the cars, though, then I'll have one. Not sure which ones when right now...If you want a rebuild kit, just let me know.

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:09 pm

Thanks again. I'll see how this fishing trip on the web plays out. If something comes my way I'll get back to you about the rebuild kits. I'm now heading back to the 412 to check the vanagon master solution and pressure valve. I hate being dumb.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:27 pm

Erik H wrote:Thanks again. I'll see how this fishing trip on the web plays out. If something comes my way I'll get back to you about the rebuild kits. I'm now heading back to the 412 to check the vanagon master solution and pressure valve. I hate being dumb.

Don't be so hard on yourself. I don't have a Vanagon clutch master in hand, but looking at a picture of one, I think I recall Ray saying you need a piece of angle iron stock (shaped like an "L"). I think you drill holes so you can bolt the Vanagon MC to the inside of one of the sides of the angle iron (maybe have some slots cut for adjustability?). Then, you drill holes on the perpendicular part to match where the "ears" on the 412 clutch master bolt up to the pedal cluster under there. Basically I think Ray has described an "adapter" to adapt the Vanagon clutch master to the correct orientation and bolt pattern of the 412. I'll try to draw a diagram of my conception...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:12 pm

Sorry..been busy lately. If you get a vanagon master cylinder...just holt it up next to the 411/412 one. The light bulb WILL appear

. The good thing about the vanagon cylinder, is that it is the same diameter and stroke. IN fact, you can use the sels to rebuild the one in the 411/412///but not the pistons. But....the vanagon one monted with a pair of screws through the side. Those can simply be bolted to the top edge of a piece of angle iron. Drill two holes in the other flange of the angle iron to meet up with the holes in the pedal cluster where the type 4 unit sits. I cannot remember wether there were any issues with the clutch line meeting up or not. I believe they were the same thread. If not, thats not a hard thing to fix at any hydraulic shop. I also can't remember wether the residual pressure valve from teh type 4 cylinder fits the vaagon cylinder. You can do without that...but it makes bleeding the clutch lines about 100% easier. Ray

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:01 pm

No shame here. Vanagon master not working and still looking for the stock replacement. Does anyone have a clutch master out there? Any condition. I have ONE 412 ball joint for trade. Anyone interested? Help.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:26 pm

Well...you are probably juggleing too many variables at one time. Lets get rid of some of them for you.

(1) The 411/412 cylinder and the vanagon cylinder have the same diameter, stroke and stroke volume.......so....at least you know that IF....the vanagon cylinder would fit in..........it would work perfectly!

(2) If you think along the lines of.....what is the difference in the mounting of the two cylinders....you come up with.....the 412 has ears with 12mm bolt holes.....the vanagon has no ears at all.....and 6mm bolt holes that screw into bosses cast into the side.

From this....you think about how you can ADD the ears to the vanagon cylinder. Think about this.....hold the vanagon cylinder in your hand so you are looking at the back end where the pushrod goes in. This is now in the approximate position that the cylinder will be in......if you could install it. Now......think about a piece of angle iron....with sides of about 1.25" to 1.5"....pretty standard home depot stuff. Hold it....so that one leg is horizontal.....and going toward your left hand....and the other leg...is pointing toward the floor. Place it UNDER the vanagon master cylinder

Now...if it had a pair of 6mm hoels bored into the horizontal leg against the bottom of the cylinder....you could bolt it right onto the master cylinder. Now....visualize....a pair of 12mm holes bored into the vertical leg...so it can be bolted to the pedal cluster unit.....in place of teh old master.
You will have to center the master cylinder carefully on the angle iron....and measure all holes carefully. You will also probably need to by a longer clevis pin that goes through the pushrod and slightly offset it to make sure it pushes the piston straight.

(3) If teh clutch tube fits without the residual pressure valve...use it that way. If it fits with it...so much the better. If not...just go to a hose shop and have a teflon stainless one made for it....or steel...whatever.

(4) You can always d what I have done....just buy a vanagon cylinder....take out the seals...and the compensating flap valves....throw away the vanagon cylinder and pistons.....and rebuild the 411/412 unit. Ray

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:55 pm

Hey these guys have a picture of the vanagon clutch master. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... %2D401%2DA It looks like the original one has ears to mount it and the vanagon has holes tapped to mount so I guess you need to make a bracket to mount to the top and create the ears with the "L" bracket mounting to the top and then mounting it off the L?? I can see that working! Just have to drill or get predrilled stock so you can get the pedal adjustments right I guess. Another great Ray solution! Thank Ray, bill p.s. I have all the parts available from FAG that were still available for rebuilding. No pistons though P.s.s. Hey there is a Vanagon clutch master on ebay but the picture is just a sample. Item number 8007149847

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:29 pm

Actually...the holes are on the bottom of the FAG Vanagon cylinder. The angle iron goes underneath. The only thing on t op of the cylinder....like the 411/412 one...is the plastic tube to feed fluid. But....that is indeed the correct vanagon part in that picture. If you can find a kit to steal teh seals and flaps from...so much the better. Just remember...DO NOT...use the vanagon pistons in the type 4 cylinder. They ar not correct...and cannot be made to be correct. They will not work. Ray

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:22 pm

Erik H, I have the cylinder and rebuild kit ready, I'll get them sent out tomorrow!

Erik H · Post by **Erik H** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:50 am

As the kids say "word" (sorry, I do some substitute stuff from time to time). That is to say "great, fantastic, cool, sick, and of course bitch'n! Ball joint shipped friday USPS priority. I'll keep you posted with the results.

Erik

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:51 pm

I had to wait 'til today at lunch to get the cylinder + kit sent out, but it is on its way right now! Got your package today also. Anyway, I hope the cylinder is good enough to rebuild. The one on the parts car ended being toast-completely frozen. This one is off of the '73 and moved freely in the car, but I didn't disassemble it to look.

It is the most recently driven car out off all of them, being last registered in 2003, so I'm crossing my fingers...