New to T4s.......lots of questions

[Monkeyman]

I'm new to 411/412s and have some questions. What's the difference between the two? Is there someplace that shows the differences between the model years? What are the advantages/disadvantages between these and the "other" ACVWs (i.e. Bug, Ghia, etc)? I understand the T4s have a "real" auto tranny and a flat floor/unibody. Are there the same rust issues as the Bugs?

More questions as these are answered.

Thanx.

Dave

[raygreenwood]

There are numerous difference between the two...most so subtle that you cannot see then without cutting the car apart. But the main differences between 411/412 were the changes to teh front end panel shapes. The 411 has rounded hood features and a prominent VW crossbar insignia on the nose. The 412....has sharp edges....and a raked under front with almost cat-eye shaped lights. Other than that....they are essentially the same in every respect...save for the improvements through the years in underpinnings and smal details. Sitting in a 411 or 412....you would not know it was either a 411 or a 412....unless you really were good at identifying small detail like....the quartz clock in the late 412.....or the different dash board warning light for seatbelts....or the different numbering styles on the instruments (there were three). Otherwise...they look and feel teh same on the inside.

As for the differences between type 1's...thats obvoius...lets see: Much larger, handle better, look totally different, much more comfortable, much better heating, many times they have AC, have much improved engines, are faster and quicker (with either automatic or standard) than a stock bug...any stock bug, they have better headlights, totally dffernt type of suspensions....(front struts and rear coils and trailing wishbones on the 411/412).

As for the differences to the type 3....the differences are just as many. The type 3 though it has a better version of the front suspension design of the bug....and handles better than the bug.....its still not as good as the type 4. Though the type 3 is a much nicer and more comfortable car than the bug in my opinion....its still not as nice as the type 4.

The bus (early) ghia, and type 181 thing...are all type 1's basically. Ray

[Monkeyman]

Thanks, Ray! Any chance you could post a pic of the front end of a 411 and a 412? Are there any year to year guides to the changes (i.e. 1969 added factory A/C, 1970 chrome trim removed & ejection seat added)? Are there any rust issues that I should know about (such as the typical Type 1 floor pans and heater channels)? Did they ever make a 2dr notchback style 411/412?

Thanks for the time.

[tuna]

Here are two web sites that I think will answer most of your questions:

My web site: http://www.tunacan.net/t4corner/

and

Jens' web site: http://www.type4.org/

Read both of these thoroughly and if you have any questions, feel free to ask away.

Tuna

[Monkeyman]

Good reading. Thanks, Mr. Tuna. After reading through most of those sites, I still have a couple of questions.

1) Is it possible to graft a 411 doghouse (fenders, hood, etc) to a later 412? Or...Is it possible to transplant a later 1.8L, FI, automatic drivetrain into an earlier 411?

2) Are there any specific rust issues like the other ACVWs have (i.e. floor pan, etc)?

Thanks for your time, guys (and gals). I used to own a '75 Super Bug years ago but I had never heard of the 411/412 until I joined TheSamba a few weeks ago. Neat looking cars!

[raygreenwood]

Its possible to weld the entire front clip of a 411 to a 412 and vica versa. The fenders and hoods....by themselves will not fitfromone car to the other. The engines...are totally interchangable. The 412 only had the 1.8 liter in the very last year of production...and then not totally all of that year. My 412 came with a 1.7 with D-jet injection. As far as desirability goes....in my opinion, the 1.7 is the more desirable engine. It put out better HP and torque than the 1.8. But...if its just the L-jet injection of the 1.8 that you like as compared to the D-jet of the 1.7.....you can simply bolt the L-jet up to the 1.7.
The main problem with the 1.8...was low compression and slightly small valves. That....and the fact that the stock cams of all the type 4 engines were junk. You could easily find a 1.8 and correct the low compression, put in a webcam and larger valves during the rebuild, and have a very nice engine. After you correct these things, the 1.8 is a better engine....just by displacement alone. Ray

[Guest]

I wasn't aware that the front ends were welded. I guess I just assumed that the fenders, hood, etc just bolted on. Hmmm...I guess I'll look for a 411 when the time comes. Just something about the more rounded headlights does it for me.

What's the difference between the L- and the D-jet fuel injections? I was under the assumption (just from what little I've been able to read so far) that either it was carburated (in single or dual versions) or it was fuel injected. I'm hoping not to have to rebuild anything in the first year or two of ownership as my garage just isn't set up for that kind of stuff. (I'm hoping for a new garage in the next 2-3 years.)

I've read that some T4s came with factory A/C. True? If the one I find doesn't have A/C, are there any companies with kits?

Dave

[raygreenwood]

No...you misread that. It is possible...to cut off the entire front end...of one car and weld it to another. That is not just the hood and fenders...it is the unibody they bolt to as well. A front "clip"....is when the front end back to the firewall is cut-off....and replaced on another car.

The fenders on 411/412...bolt on like everything else. Problem is...The bodies they bolt to are different.
For instance...... If you have a good hood and front fenders from a 411 and want to bolt them onto a 412...it cannot be done....unless you cut off the underlying unibody section that the fenders and hood bolt to....from the 411.....then cut off the front unibody section of the 412....and weld the 411's unibody section. Is this clear? The fenders and hood from 411 and 412...do not swap without surgery. Thats surgery is very very difficult to do. These cas had front and rear crumple zones built in. Cutting off a front clip seriously weakens them.
Since there is effectively no real diffferences between the 411/412 other than styling issue .....just get the one whose looks you like the best. All of the other small differences will bolt right in. Ray

[tuna]

1) Is it possible to graft a 411 doghouse (fenders, hood, etc) to a later 412?

The body lines in the front are not the same. In order to swap, you'd have to replace all of the front sheetmetal. My advice to leave it all alone and find the car you want from the beginning.

Or...Is it possible to transplant a later 1.8L, FI, automatic drivetrain into an earlier 411?

Definitely. If you know what you are doing, you can go bigger than that. How about a 2.5L+ with a Porsche 5 speed? Definitely possible if you have the fabrication skills. =>

I used to own a '75 Super Bug years ago but I had never heard of the 411/412 until I joined TheSamba a few weeks ago. Neat looking cars!

They are neating look and the numbers of us who agree are growing. Hopefully we'll see more of these great cars being restored and/or customized.

Tuna

[Monkeyman]

Did all of the wagons come standard with the automatic tranny?

Are these good daily driver cars?

I'm familiar with mid/rear engine cars, having driven Pontiac Fieros for years. With a little bit of extra weight in the front trunk, are these decent in the snow?

[ubercrap]

Did all of the wagons come standard with the automatic tranny?

Are these good daily driver cars?

I'm familiar with mid/rear engine cars, having driven Pontiac Fieros for years. With a little bit of extra weight in the front trunk, are these decent in the snow?

In the U.S., it seems all the wagons came with automatics. Some have been converted to manual. Only you can decide if you want to drive one daily. Drive one and see if you can live with it. Any vehicle with the engine weight over the driving wheels should have decent traction in snow.

[tuna]

Did all of the wagons come standard with the automatic tranny?

As far as my research has shown, most (if not all) of the 411/412s sold here in the US by VWoA were automatics, either 4-doors or wagons. Manuals and 2-door sedans are usually grey market cars, from Europe or Canada, and never officially sold by VWoA.

Are these good daily driver cars?

They can be, depending upon your needs. The worst part of using one for a driver is when you need replacement parts. Some parts can be difficult to impossible to replace in a rushed timeline. If you do drive a Type 4 everyday, I'd suggest having something else as backup, like a Bug or Bus.

Tuna

[raygreenwood]

These cars make awesome daily drivers. But...as Tuna noted....things can get tight when parts fail. I have some suggestions. Everything I do for type 4....is earmarked for daily driver. Until 3 years ago....my 412 was all I had. I put over 100K on it.

The things you MUST do...to keep from breaking things that cannot be replaced, is replace everything first.....and take a few steps to make sure parts that had questionable design from the start...are no longer used.

For instance: suspension. Replace all the tie rods and centerlink. If your ball joints are good, scavenge new boots from a new pair of bus ball joints...and install a grease fitting (do a search). They will then last a long time. Get better struts, get new bushings all around, get better rear shocks. Get straight wheels...and good tires. Have a bronze idler bushing made.

In short...get everything tight and straight.

Brakes. Rebuild the calipers....and either rebuild the master cylinder or get a new one or convert to a bus model mounted in the trunk.
Get new rotors. Its a good thing to either cross drill them.. or buy them that way. Get top notch pads, shims and hardware. I can help you find what you want if needed. You want to stop great and not wear rotors. Get new wheel bearings all around.

On the automatic....it pays highly...to put a new seal kit in it at the very least. It pays more to actually do what MGVW did...buy the parts....and spend some time making it tight and new.....and then adjusting the pressures properly.

If its a 4 speed...do not drive it daily until you do the mods I have posted or it will sooner or later die.

Work hard to get very proper suspension alignmnet.

Seal up all water leaks.

Go through the heater.

After all of this....the dependability is awesome.

This is not yet speaking of the engine. That is a different category and much simpler than all the rest.

The reason why this list looks extensve...is because the car is 30 years old. Most of the rubber and joints and bearings are just shot...no matter how tight they look. Also, all of these cars suffer from a combination of 2 decades of sitting still, poor or half way mechanical care, and a few small deficiencies from the factory. Get them up to par....and they are some of the most dependable VW's I have ever driven. Ray

[ubercrap]

Did all of the wagons come standard with the automatic tranny?

As far as my research has shown, most (if not all) of the 411/412s sold here in the US by VWoA were automatics, either 4-doors or wagons. Manuals and 2-door sedans are usually grey market cars, from Europe or Canada, and never officially sold by VWoA.

Are these good daily driver cars?

They can be, depending upon your needs. The worst part of using one for a driver is when you need replacement parts. Some parts can be difficult to impossible to replace in a rushed timeline. If you do drive a Type 4 everyday, I'd suggest having something else as backup, like a Bug or Bus.

Tuna

Interesting theory, but why would the '74 2dr. sedans have the "big" U.S. bumpers if they weren't sold here originally? I see no evidence on my cars of them being altered either, although, I would need to see a '74 wagon or 4 door to be sure, as my cars have extra recessed areas in the nose panel that would have been punched out for the <'73 bumper mounts, but of course they are equipped with the "shock absorber" mounts. The Canada theory is possible, but I thought that Canada started the 5 mph bumper standards later than the U.S., say 1978, but I might be wrong. Any Canadians out there that can confirm this? Also, I believe that somebody mentioned that they had the impression that the 2dr. sedan was only sold "east of the Mississippi" in '74. The paperwork I have for one of my cars seems to confirm this. The manual shows Delivery inspection at Van Slyke VW in Knoxville, TN- 2-21-75 with 6 mi. on the clock. The car was then serviced at Universal Motors, in Huntsville Alabama through 11-18-75 with 11879 mi. on the odometer. However, what is interesting is that in the first owners section in the front of the manual, they list California as their address, but under the Vehicle identification information, the dealer is listed as Whitaker VW, Columbia, TN. Exactly one year after purchased, the manual shows the car being serviced by Ed Norris VW, Pacifica, CA. It seems to me that might relate somehow to the car not being available in California as a new vehicle, that they needed to wait a year before they could bring it there or something, because the '74 2dr. sedan still had the high compression 1.7L? Just a crackpot theory of mine...Somebody still had to have been driving it down south for that year. I have the original owners phone number, I wonder if they still live there by any chance? I also seem to recall that DB mentioned his '73 2dr. had the lower compression engine as it was a CA car originally? Also, shoptalkforums memeber VWAddict, whom I got one of my 412s from, mentioned that there was a 2dr. sedan at a dealership where he, I believe, worked in the '70's. All these things lead me to conclude the 2dr. 412 sedan was officially sold in the U.S. albeit in extremly low numbers.

[raygreenwood]

I'm really not sure. I have never seen a 2dr with big bumpers. I have owned....2 two doors. One was a 411, the oher is my 73 412. I have worked on a few more.

But....most foreign car companies were quite adept at dropping in the changes needed to meet DOT regs even when the car is not normally shipped to the USA. My 73 was a "tourist" vehicle. It was destined for the USA...at the time of purchase...so it had some peculiarities to the chrome bumper...like the strengthening bar inside of it. But...was required and equiped to drive in Europe for a certain amount of time. It came back here with its German tourist plates and the country of origin badge attached. Ray