Wheel Issue again,LOL!

[vwbill]

Hey Guys, just another wheel/tire question? If the original wheel with the tire measures 24" from top to bottom and is 6" wide approx.; can you use any wheel/tire combo that is the same total of those numbers if you get something with a good center offset? I.E. lets say you use a 17" wheel and a tire with a side profile that is close to the difference(7")? Of coarse with a width close to the original. I know you would need the same lugs spacing. So could we use say a new beetle pattern or newer four luger?
Thx, bill

[ubercrap]

Most cars offer at least a little flexibilty in tire/wheel width. It sounds like the Type 4 is not very forgiving for wider/bigger tires and wheels. It seems the road is only lightely traveled when it comes to Type 4 custom wheels. I've seen some pictures of tire/wheel combos I would not have thought possible, but there they are. I think you will just have to do a lot of measuring and some experimentation, along with an assesment of how long your want your steering and suspension components to last, as well as ride and handling aspect trade-offs. As for the lug pattern (4x130mm), virtually nothing shares it except for other late aircooled cars and the 914. There have been a few cool wheels made, but not many. It is possible to have rotors/drums redrilled depending on the application. Then there are adapters, but the wheels will need to have a high positive offset to make up for the thickness of the adapter, usually around an inch thick minimum. Luckily many newer Porsche wheels have a high positive offset. Somewhere I posted a link for a place offering 914 front rotors (same as ours) pre-drilled and studded in the Porsche 5x130mm bolt pattern. If you wanted to upgrade your rear brakes to disc, then you could get the Porsche pattern kit at that point and you would be all done. Also look through my posts and there is a link to company that makes custom parts for hub/brake conversions on aircooled VW's in many configurations, including later VW 5 lug (yes incl. New Beetle which came/come with some relatively narrow modern wheels) You could improve your brakes and change the bolt pattern both with that route. My moderate wheel/tire combo plan is to use the pre-drilled, studded, reinforced 914 5x130 pattern rotors, disc conversion on the rear (or maybe drilled drums), and run the "Marathon" looking Porsche alloy spare wheels 16X5.5" with 195/50 16 tires.

[tuna]

All 411/412s came with either 15x4 or 15x4.5 wheels, with either 165R15 or 155R15 tires. The wheel width is only a part of the effort in fitting a custom wheel onto a car. Like ubercrap said, the offset of the wheel is critical.

Here's a diagram from the Yokohama Tire website illustrating wheel offsets:



The problem with most aftermarket 4-lug wheels, like the AE 8-spoke and the AE Riviera (two common wheels I've seen on Type 4s), they have a lot of negative offset, which places the wheel outside, causing rubbing on the outer fender lip.

So, you need a wheel with enough offset to not rub on the outer fender lip, but not too much so that the tire rubs on the inner fender well or the front strut/spring. As for tires, I'm guessing that anything beyond a 205 is going to give you too many problems.

I'd like to build a GL 411 with 16" Porsche alloys (Fuchs 5-spoke) with 16x6" (or 6" in the front and 7" in the rear) with 195/50R16s in the front and 205/55R16s in the back. I think the wheels have an offset that will work on the 411. Of course I won't know until I get that 411 and the wheels/tires. Of course I'd drill the brake hubs for the Porsche pattern, maybe even the rear 914 disc brake conversion.

Just my thoughts....

Tuna

[R2.0]

Quick heads up: 155 and 165-r15 tires are not 24" diameter - they are 25".

A good calculator for comparitive wheel and tire info :

Tire Size Calculator (ignore the whole "Miata" thing - it's a generic calculator)

Also, for VW's per se:

CSP Wheel Calculator Don't get hung up on the wheels they have, just use their measurements to work from. The graphical representation at the end is the best part - it really helps one visualize what a change in wheel type actually means.

[tuna]

Quick heads up: 155 and 165-r15 tires are not 24" diameter - they are 25".

155R15 = 24.8"
165R15 = 25.4"

So to keep the transmission and engine happy, keep the rear tires within these two numbers.

For instance, a 205/55R16 is 24.9", almost the same diameter as the 155. A smaller diameter and the car will wind out at top speed. A larger diameter will put a larger load on the engine and transmission. Once again, keep the diameter bewteen the two numbers above. It's all a big math game.

Tuna

[vwbill]

Great info Guys! So would the stock wheel be Zero offset or positive?
So the newer wheels out there have a different lug pattern to our 411/412? If you buy a wheel from a wheel maker can they make the lug pattern to any size or is that gonna be a pure custom one off thing? So we are basically working in the 24.8" to 25.4" range for tire wheel combo.
I have seen some really sweet wheels offered on ebay in the 15" to 19" range with four lugs for the modern cars mostly with positive offset but with the coolest five spoke brushed looks! I love the stock look too but when you see all those newer wheel four luggers out there and how many different looks are possible it make you want to change out! I had cleaned and painted my old rims but they already need to be redone so I cant decide between sand blastin and chroming and the mod. look! I have seen those already chromed stocks on ebay in 4.5" or 5.5" but they are the brazill stuff so I'm not to sure of the quality? Thx Bill

[tuna]

So would the stock wheel be Zero offset or positive?

It all depends on which stock wheel. There are a few different models, and each of them is different. Take your stock wheel off the car. Flip it around so you are looking at the back side of the wheel. Some where on there you will find the size (like 15x4, 15x4.5) and then the offset. If memory serves me right, the number will have a J proceeding or preceding it. That's the offset, in this case probably a positive number. If you aren't sure, you can calculate the offset with the rim width and the back spacing (shown in the diagram).

So the newer wheels out there have a different lug pattern to our 411/412?

Yep. The "4-lug" VW wheel is 4x130, 4lugs with a 130mm bolt circle. The 4-lug Rabbit was 4x100, the Porsche pattern (expect the 356/914) was 5x130, the late Bus was 5x112. The New Beetle is 5x100, I believe.

If you buy a wheel from a wheel maker can they make the lug pattern to any size or is that gonna be a pure custom one off thing?

Companies like Colorado Custom offer any of their wheels with your choice of sizes, offsets, and bolt patterns. I believe Airkewled.net of Riverside, CA sells the Colorado Custom wheels in the common VW sizes.

So we are basically working in the 24.8" to 25.4" range for tire wheel combo.

Yep. That's the goal.

I have seen some really sweet wheels offered on ebay in the 15" to 19" range with four lugs for the modern cars mostly with positive offset but with the coolest five spoke brushed looks!

Find out the manufacturer of the wheel you like and find out the bolt patterns, offsets, and sizes they are available in.

I had cleaned and painted my old rims but they already need to be redone so I cant decide between sand blastin and chroming and the mod. look!

Do realize that you can't just have a chrome shop plate your wheels. They have to knock the centers out, chrome both parts and then weld back in.

I have seen those already chromed stocks on ebay in 4.5" or 5.5" but they are the brazill stuff so I'm not to sure of the quality?

I've never heard anything bad about them, but do watch the offsets....

Tuna

[R2.0]

The markings on your wheels will read as such:

4.5Jx15 ET38

4.5" wide
Bead type "J" (is there another bead type?}
15" diameter
38mm positive offset (ET is the abbreviation for the German word meaning offset)

Odds are they will be ET38 or 42, I think.

[ubercrap]

Right, the stock Type 4 wheels, according to Deathbus, are the same as the Ghia wheels (higher positive offset), not Beetle. But what fun is staying stock? As Tuna said, I think it would be relatively safe still to go no wider than 6" on the front, with 195- 205mm width tires, offset somewhere around 25-35mm? The rear might be able to handle up 7" with 205- 215mm width tires. Of course, the balls-to-the-wall route would be 17x7" all around with 205/40 17 tires up front and 215/40 or 205/45 17 tires at the rear.

[vwbill]

More great info!! I never knew you needed to cut the center out to re-chrome wheels! Wonder why? Is it a current issue? I was looking at these wheel on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 7993249352 looks like they have the 4-100 bolt pattern.
That company has some nice wheel styles! It looks like they are available in other sizes. Have to check out the BSA web site if possible.
http://www.bsa.com.my/fproduct.htm look at the 291 style. They have 15", but 6.5" wide, 35/45 offset...
The stock chrome wheels from the aftermarket do look nice and are in the cheaper 65 buck range and doubt you could get one rechrome for that. thx Bill

[ubercrap]

Those ebay wheels would be absolutely badass in my opinion. I think it would be possible to run them as Neal Anderson had 17x7 Porsche cup wheels on his 412. It must be possible! Is it a bad idea? Of course! What I have experienced is that wheels like that put a tremendous amount of stress on your car, especially the steering components. Hell my GTI is experiencing some problems from the lowering and 17" wheels right now and those haven't been on there for but a few thousand miles. If you want to be the man, though, you have to pay the price! There is the aformentioned place that specializes in custom hubs/brake kits for aircooled VW's and I believe 4x100 was one of their standards. If I can remember the link or find it, I'll post it up.

[Wally]

I'd like to build a GL 411 with 16" Porsche alloys..

Of course I'd drill the brake hubs for the Porsche pattern,
Tuna

Would you drill and tap in the thin part of a disk brake to mount your wheel onto???
Wouldn't that be very 'unsafe'?

[vwbill]

Hey Tuna, thanks for the wheel links! Those guys have some sweet wheel too! I really like the http://www.airkewld.com/ ones just wish all the models were 4x130mm! Damn wheels are bucks, lol! bill

[tuna]

More great info!! I never knew you needed to cut the center out to re-chrome wheels! Wonder why? Is it a current issue?

I was told the same thing from two local independent chrome shops. No matter how clean they prep the wheel, the valley in between the band and the center will soon start rusting. They said that if they did it, it looks bad on the shop, so niether one does.

I've restored 4 pairs of 4-lug EMPI Sprint Stars by having the centers removed. It also allows me to get the offset (within reason) and band size I want, so it's not an issue for me.

Would you drill and tap in the thin part of a disk brake to mount your wheel onto??? Shocked
Wouldn't that be very 'unsafe'?

You might be right about being too thin. I've never really analyzed the hubs for doing that modification. I would think since the hub was 4x130, that 5x130 should pose any problems. Of course this is all in the future, as I don't have a 411 right now.

4.5Jx15 ET38

That's it!! Using that information, you can figure out the rear spacing and front spacing.


I have to say that if you do go the BIG route with 16s or 17s, keep in mind the trade offs. Yes, the car will handle better and it will look SWEET, but that comes at a price (beyond cash). It will ride stiffer (less sidewall flex), avoid potholes at all costs (bent rims are EXPENSIVE to fix), and the increased weight of a wide 17" over a narrow 15" can make the engine work harder (it may or may not be noticable). The extra sprung weight of a large rim may not be noticable to a gas guzzling humungous 454ci Suburban, but for us smaller car people, that may be an issue.

Tuna

[ubercrap]

Check these out:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... ?id=158812

Look familiar?