I was just sent this link to a custom 411 being built by a company called Turn 6 Tuning. It's going to be a really nice car when it's done. I'm going to reply to the sender to see if I can get some details on the car and invite them to post here.
http://www.turn6tuning.com/projects/wagen/wagen.htm
Tuna
WARNING for dial-up! The "thumbnails" are actually redrawn full size images, so it will take a while to download all of them. If there are enough of you, I will run them through my thumbnail program and make them available on my site.
New custom 411 project
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tuna
- Posts: 2531
- Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 12:01 am
New custom 411 project
http://vdubgeek.blogspot.com/
Type 4: Secrets Revealed - https://type4secrets.blogspot.com/
Tom's Type 4 Corner - coming soon!
EMPI Imp Homepage - coming soon!
My VWs - http://vdubgeek.blogspot.com/p/my-vdubs_5.html
Type 4: Secrets Revealed - https://type4secrets.blogspot.com/
Tom's Type 4 Corner - coming soon!
EMPI Imp Homepage - coming soon!
My VWs - http://vdubgeek.blogspot.com/p/my-vdubs_5.html
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Nice car! The wheels arn't my bag....but the work looks first rate...and the curves of the car are shown off well.
"Our" cars...just got a very nice compliment the other night. A friend of mine who is a strict "non"-wrencher...and drives a tuned out Honda S-2000 to auto-cross on the weekend...just saw my 412 sitting in the driveway in all its primered (but straight) glory....and commented that "dang...you know that car is just old enough and unique enough...that with that shape and that front end...it will be a damn fine looking car"! "its come full circle". Ray
"Our" cars...just got a very nice compliment the other night. A friend of mine who is a strict "non"-wrencher...and drives a tuned out Honda S-2000 to auto-cross on the weekend...just saw my 412 sitting in the driveway in all its primered (but straight) glory....and commented that "dang...you know that car is just old enough and unique enough...that with that shape and that front end...it will be a damn fine looking car"! "its come full circle". Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Man, looks like someone did some work on that baby!! I'd like to see it completed with the windows in place. Do you think the colcr is a butterscotch or a gold tone? Looked like in the first pics there were another set of wheel there also. I wonder how the ride will be with out the side wall of the tires helping out? Wonder how it would have looked with the big rear windows like the one for sale without the side pillars? Wonder if they will be going with a dark tint? Still a great great project!! I wish I could be that modivated! Thanks for the post! Great job! bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
It will be a stiff ride. But...I'm wonderingt that if there has been no upgrade to the stock suspension.....taht it may takesome of the mush out? But bear in mind.....without the flex of the sidewalls, there will be parts that have definate problems. There will be accelerated wear to the ball joints.....though not too hideous. There will be definate problems long term with the strut bushings and the radius arm bushings.
To give you an idea of the possible issues....when I first put on GR-2 audi 4000 cartridges...I also went to 5.5" rims with 205-60/15 tires. The Audi struts are stiffer by a factor of about 2...compared to stock.
This...by the way..was a superb combination. But...when those tires wore out...I went to 205/50-15's. In three weeks...it destroyed both bonded early style strut bushings (they were NOS with 12K miles on them)....and it cracked an ear on the radius arm bushing and pounded out one ball joint on teh other side.
Thats how much difference low profile tires make. I went back to 205/60's...cause it set everything straight. But in my book...especially with teh audi cartridges.....55 series is about as low of a profile as you can go safely without seriously thinking about what is going to happen.
Please bear in mind....again...that the front springs on the 411/412...are more than this vehicle will ever need. What is bad...is that the stock struts have a poor level of control...for one. They allow lots of body roll and a very slow damping rate...though the ride is superbly smooth. Second.....when you go to the audi struts...which is a very excellent damping rate....the ride is still...almost as smooth, as they are extremly well matched to the spring set on tehse cars. But.....other parts in between the front steering knuckle and the strut bushing now come into play. That would be the ball joints. The stiffer damping rate tries to find some place to bleed that enertia off to......that is easier to access than compressing the main coil spring. That ends up being the coil spring in teh back of the ball joints.
With too much sidewall gone..this happens on almost every bump. Thinking about the front suspension changes must be very calculated if this is to be a daily driver.
This is also theain reason I am earching for ball joints with stiffer springs. Ray
To give you an idea of the possible issues....when I first put on GR-2 audi 4000 cartridges...I also went to 5.5" rims with 205-60/15 tires. The Audi struts are stiffer by a factor of about 2...compared to stock.
This...by the way..was a superb combination. But...when those tires wore out...I went to 205/50-15's. In three weeks...it destroyed both bonded early style strut bushings (they were NOS with 12K miles on them)....and it cracked an ear on the radius arm bushing and pounded out one ball joint on teh other side.
Thats how much difference low profile tires make. I went back to 205/60's...cause it set everything straight. But in my book...especially with teh audi cartridges.....55 series is about as low of a profile as you can go safely without seriously thinking about what is going to happen.
Please bear in mind....again...that the front springs on the 411/412...are more than this vehicle will ever need. What is bad...is that the stock struts have a poor level of control...for one. They allow lots of body roll and a very slow damping rate...though the ride is superbly smooth. Second.....when you go to the audi struts...which is a very excellent damping rate....the ride is still...almost as smooth, as they are extremly well matched to the spring set on tehse cars. But.....other parts in between the front steering knuckle and the strut bushing now come into play. That would be the ball joints. The stiffer damping rate tries to find some place to bleed that enertia off to......that is easier to access than compressing the main coil spring. That ends up being the coil spring in teh back of the ball joints.
With too much sidewall gone..this happens on almost every bump. Thinking about the front suspension changes must be very calculated if this is to be a daily driver.
This is also theain reason I am earching for ball joints with stiffer springs. Ray
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Neat piece of work that! Glad to see someone's doing a "Kustom" T4 up right.
As for the suspension comments...on a recent trip to Bastrop, TX (150 miles, secondary roads and I-10), I noticed a bit of pitching moment when going over large bumps, and if I didn't have those cheap 165/80R15 Kumhos with the flexible sidewalls, I would have noticed a lot of expansion strip roughness. Ray's right, short, stiff sidewalls with no changes to spring rates, etc. mean harshness with this car. But, the ride quality was really astounding for a 40-year-old design. It'll hold its own with most any modern sedan.
The only difference with other designs (FEFD, FERD) is the crosswind induced yawing found in every rear-engine design I've driven. It wasn't as bad as I feared (we had crosswind gusts up to 35 mph, and I only had to do slight corrections to maintain the course), but it was there.
As for the suspension comments...on a recent trip to Bastrop, TX (150 miles, secondary roads and I-10), I noticed a bit of pitching moment when going over large bumps, and if I didn't have those cheap 165/80R15 Kumhos with the flexible sidewalls, I would have noticed a lot of expansion strip roughness. Ray's right, short, stiff sidewalls with no changes to spring rates, etc. mean harshness with this car. But, the ride quality was really astounding for a 40-year-old design. It'll hold its own with most any modern sedan.
The only difference with other designs (FEFD, FERD) is the crosswind induced yawing found in every rear-engine design I've driven. It wasn't as bad as I feared (we had crosswind gusts up to 35 mph, and I only had to do slight corrections to maintain the course), but it was there.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:00 pm
Oh yeah, I am through with ultra-low profile tires for daily driven cars anyway. Well, I don't really drive daily anymore...but anyway, I had for years driven with 40 series tires- since the days when 17" wheels were still fairly radical (OK, that was only the late 90's, but still....) The tires really pound the crap out of the car and passengers. Wheels get bent or broken constantly. For a German look 412, though, gonna have to stuff 17's with 205/40's under there just so I can sit and admire the looks. I believe Ray mentioned the increased caster modification decreases the wind wandering significantly?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The ideal long haul tire size I have found for the 411/412...is 205/60-15 for those with Auid 4000 struts up front and KYB's in the rear. These are a HUGE change from teh overly "pliable" stock high side walls. They have a large contact patch ...roughly an inch wider than stock...with 15mm lower sidewalls each side of center. The stockers are 138mm sidewalls and the 205's are 123mm sidewalls. Thats a good inch lower in profile total. They handle much better without beating you to death with teh new stiffer suspension.
205/55's work very well as well. Only issues are that with the Audi 4000 struts...they are just enough stiffer that they load up the struts to their stiffest on rough pavemnet......by transfering more of each "shock" encountered..instead of absorbing it through the sidewall. This can cause adhesion problems sometimes in slightly rough pavement in teh rain.
Now if you are using the softer stock struts....the 205/55's work best. Ray
205/55's work very well as well. Only issues are that with the Audi 4000 struts...they are just enough stiffer that they load up the struts to their stiffest on rough pavemnet......by transfering more of each "shock" encountered..instead of absorbing it through the sidewall. This can cause adhesion problems sometimes in slightly rough pavement in teh rain.
Now if you are using the softer stock struts....the 205/55's work best. Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Well...technically...low profile tires are a large change and potential problem on ANY vehicle.
On your average high performance BMW...with tire profiles like 45 and 50 series....it takes forged rims and very...very careful tuning of spring rates, sway bar rates, and damping rates to make the ride acceptable (but still harsh to some)...and most of all....survivable for the supension. As others were just noting.....low profile tires on a vehicle where everything is not dialed in....leads to broken belts in tires, cracked and dented rims and broken suspension parts.
This may be the time to go into suspension a little bit. About five years ago...there was a really excellent series of build-up articles in European car. Can't remember what vehicle....but the gist was basic theory for all vehicles.
Things to think about:
In a suspension system...any and all flexible/compressible parts ...within a train....are active parts. And I eman very active parts.
Here is their list for a front strut system...of active parts from the ground up.
(1) Tire sidewall height. The tire flexes when you hit a bump. It is....an air-spring. The less sidewall height...the less spring.
(2) Tire pressure ...just part of the spring.
(3) Strut coil spring. This is the core of thesystem....not the oil or gas insert. Properly calculated springs....on a glass smooth surface...will give correct ride height, correct weight control and correct cornering stance.....without the damping action of the strut cartridge.
(4) Strut cartridge. This is simply a damper....which is why all of the European manuals call them...DAMPERS. It is design to control teh velocity at which the spring compresses and unloads. Without dampers...you can literally "crush" the spring on the first hard bump...because velocity creates ...enertia. Likewise...without dampers.....on the rebound...it would lauch you off the ground.
NOTE: This is why I always note......that the 411/412 front springs...are actually superb! In fact...they are larger than the car needs. They are more than enough for anything this car will do....up to and including...track work.
But....the stock dampers are sh*t. They allow too fast of a compression of the stock spring as they wear. Thats why many "think" that the front springs are weak. They are not. Whats worse..they are even worse on rebound control. They unload too fast.
This can be seen...when you hit a moderate bump with teh stock struts...and the bump itself is not felt to bad...but .....the springs uload so violently...that they actually pop the nose up about an inch...on rebound...after the bump.
(5) The bump stop. Most believe that this is just the cushion for an overtravel. Possibly in the early days it was. No longer. Modern systems use the bump stop length, diameter, shape ...and rebound and durometer level as an ACTIVE...and highly engineered part of the suspension. You will note in modern systems that the distance from bump stop to strut body is many times...3" or less. The car they showed this in was both BMW 300 series and the new beetle. When you get the factory motorsport suspension upgrades....you get new bump stops...that actually make a HUGE difference. They are active. They compress....they are springs.
(6) Strut bushing. Same thing...it compresses....its a spring. Its amazing what urethane strut bushings do for conrol. Its like a 10-20% upgrade in control. It also....leads to MUST HAVE...for an upper strut tower tie bar. This is because.........just like having lessflexible low profile tires....will transfer what it cannot absorb of the bump shock... up the line to the spring,......a stiffer strut bushing/bearing...has no place to transfer the force to...except the body.
Unseen and unmentioned spring parts include the swaybar, its bushings and outer links....and most importantly....the ball joints.
The sway bars are an obvious one. They are springs. They travel upward and downward with the strut. If you hit a straight across bump with both wheels ...like a speed bump...you get little (but some) action from the sway bar. this is because it will not twist along itslength...but roll in its bushings. The outer links....where the bar bolts to the control arm near the ball joint...are a HUGE tuning part. You get faster direct response...if you go to ball joint rod ends...with just a rubber or urethane disc on each side of the control arm. This is because since there will be less rubber to flex......the sway bar twists or bends more...loading its spring harder and given better return. Likewise...if you go to harder urethane sway bar mounts in teh center where it is bolted to the body....you also get better response....as there is less compression of the bar mounts (less spring)...and more loading of the sway bar itself.
Ball joints.....ride on internal springs. Look at the cutaway of the joint in teh haynes manual. It tells you everything. You have tires that are less absorptive of shocks and bumps.....and then dampers that greatly slow the compression velocity of teh coil spring....compared to stock...and the first part that actually compresses....will be the spring in the ball joint. That spring usually shatters unders these conditions.
I have been experiemnting lately.....with making the stock joint moresurvivable...by adding a piece of Urethane spring cylinder into the center of the coil spring to "bolster" the spring compression.
We really just need to find a trougher joint and make a bracket for it.
You need to think about all of these things when you are redesigning the suspension.
Yes...bags will drop you down....but outside of cruising at 25-35 mph.....will you be able to drive it anywhere? Ray
On your average high performance BMW...with tire profiles like 45 and 50 series....it takes forged rims and very...very careful tuning of spring rates, sway bar rates, and damping rates to make the ride acceptable (but still harsh to some)...and most of all....survivable for the supension. As others were just noting.....low profile tires on a vehicle where everything is not dialed in....leads to broken belts in tires, cracked and dented rims and broken suspension parts.
This may be the time to go into suspension a little bit. About five years ago...there was a really excellent series of build-up articles in European car. Can't remember what vehicle....but the gist was basic theory for all vehicles.
Things to think about:
In a suspension system...any and all flexible/compressible parts ...within a train....are active parts. And I eman very active parts.
Here is their list for a front strut system...of active parts from the ground up.
(1) Tire sidewall height. The tire flexes when you hit a bump. It is....an air-spring. The less sidewall height...the less spring.
(2) Tire pressure ...just part of the spring.
(3) Strut coil spring. This is the core of thesystem....not the oil or gas insert. Properly calculated springs....on a glass smooth surface...will give correct ride height, correct weight control and correct cornering stance.....without the damping action of the strut cartridge.
(4) Strut cartridge. This is simply a damper....which is why all of the European manuals call them...DAMPERS. It is design to control teh velocity at which the spring compresses and unloads. Without dampers...you can literally "crush" the spring on the first hard bump...because velocity creates ...enertia. Likewise...without dampers.....on the rebound...it would lauch you off the ground.
NOTE: This is why I always note......that the 411/412 front springs...are actually superb! In fact...they are larger than the car needs. They are more than enough for anything this car will do....up to and including...track work.
But....the stock dampers are sh*t. They allow too fast of a compression of the stock spring as they wear. Thats why many "think" that the front springs are weak. They are not. Whats worse..they are even worse on rebound control. They unload too fast.
This can be seen...when you hit a moderate bump with teh stock struts...and the bump itself is not felt to bad...but .....the springs uload so violently...that they actually pop the nose up about an inch...on rebound...after the bump.
(5) The bump stop. Most believe that this is just the cushion for an overtravel. Possibly in the early days it was. No longer. Modern systems use the bump stop length, diameter, shape ...and rebound and durometer level as an ACTIVE...and highly engineered part of the suspension. You will note in modern systems that the distance from bump stop to strut body is many times...3" or less. The car they showed this in was both BMW 300 series and the new beetle. When you get the factory motorsport suspension upgrades....you get new bump stops...that actually make a HUGE difference. They are active. They compress....they are springs.
(6) Strut bushing. Same thing...it compresses....its a spring. Its amazing what urethane strut bushings do for conrol. Its like a 10-20% upgrade in control. It also....leads to MUST HAVE...for an upper strut tower tie bar. This is because.........just like having lessflexible low profile tires....will transfer what it cannot absorb of the bump shock... up the line to the spring,......a stiffer strut bushing/bearing...has no place to transfer the force to...except the body.
Unseen and unmentioned spring parts include the swaybar, its bushings and outer links....and most importantly....the ball joints.
The sway bars are an obvious one. They are springs. They travel upward and downward with the strut. If you hit a straight across bump with both wheels ...like a speed bump...you get little (but some) action from the sway bar. this is because it will not twist along itslength...but roll in its bushings. The outer links....where the bar bolts to the control arm near the ball joint...are a HUGE tuning part. You get faster direct response...if you go to ball joint rod ends...with just a rubber or urethane disc on each side of the control arm. This is because since there will be less rubber to flex......the sway bar twists or bends more...loading its spring harder and given better return. Likewise...if you go to harder urethane sway bar mounts in teh center where it is bolted to the body....you also get better response....as there is less compression of the bar mounts (less spring)...and more loading of the sway bar itself.
Ball joints.....ride on internal springs. Look at the cutaway of the joint in teh haynes manual. It tells you everything. You have tires that are less absorptive of shocks and bumps.....and then dampers that greatly slow the compression velocity of teh coil spring....compared to stock...and the first part that actually compresses....will be the spring in the ball joint. That spring usually shatters unders these conditions.
I have been experiemnting lately.....with making the stock joint moresurvivable...by adding a piece of Urethane spring cylinder into the center of the coil spring to "bolster" the spring compression.
We really just need to find a trougher joint and make a bracket for it.
You need to think about all of these things when you are redesigning the suspension.
Yes...bags will drop you down....but outside of cruising at 25-35 mph.....will you be able to drive it anywhere? Ray
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:00 pm
I can't remember if it was part of the series you are referring to in European Car, but I recall there was an article somwhere on "overtiring." No, this doesn't mean when your body is tired from too much work, but about putting huge wheels and wide, low profile tires more for looks, when a different combination would have performed better in virtually every critical aspect in the same application. Still, the allure is hard to resist... As Ray suggests, auto companies make it work for the sake of sales, with a number of different strategies to compensate.
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Hey, good luck to the guy doing that custom job. I'm all for anyone keeping another T4 on the road, custom or stock.
BTW...love the XB-70, Tuna, and love the B-52/X-15, '73 VW412.
BTW...love the XB-70, Tuna, and love the B-52/X-15, '73 VW412.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
