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Numerous VW parts venders sell an aftermarket wiring kit to add a relay to the starter circuit and also the headlight circuit. I would like to hear if anyone has used them and did they solve any troubles. I have used relay circuits in many places that instantly solved current draw issues. Thanks. More later, K-mann

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Kubelmann wrote:Numerous VW parts venders sell an aftermarket wiring kit to add a relay to the starter circuit and also the headlight circuit. I would like to hear if anyone has used them and did they solve any troubles. I have used relay circuits in many places that instantly solved current draw issues. Thanks. More later, K-mann

Hi K-mann.

Still scratching my head on this issue. After a little digging, I found a brief article, with a nice schematic, here.

It begins:

Ever turn the key to start the car and hear nothing? Most times the starter turns but sometimes there’s nothing? It’s not the battery because all the lights work and so does the horn and radio. It’s not the starter. The problem is that after 30 plus years the wires get old and the electrical resistance increases until turning the key just doesn’t supply enough to engaged the starter. The good news is its easy to fix . . .

There's another article here, and a "Hard Start Relay Kit" here. In all instances, the reason for the added relay is to remedy hard starting in cars with aging, corroded wiring. I don't see how it applies in that situation discussed elsewhere.

— Spalding

Capt. Great references to resources in terms of relay use and installation. I have used them on cars that had starting troubles wiht great success. I have heard of folks running the SR17X starter. I have plans to add these relays to my Things. You asked about the difference between under load draw and stall draw. Load draw is the amount of amps that are drawn while the starter is turning the motor. Stall draw is the amount of amps that are drawn when the starter motor is held still (stalled) whilee current is applied. I am enjoying this thread withyou and hope we can get others to share their knowledge and experience to increase the starter ease of operation. As you know the relay circuit simply moves the ignition switch closer to the battery and starter. The ignition switch then simply closes the relay which in turn feeds current to the starter relay. This will offer higher current to the starter relay. Which in turn spins the starter. K-mann

You should try the simple and free things first.

Clean all the connectors and make sure they are tight. If you still have problem you can make your own relay kit for a few dollars. Just buy a Bosch 30amp and some wire.

http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/relay_starter.htm

I have the relay part number and how to wire it on my site.

Glenn, Thanks for posting this great information. I too have made a few relay circuits from off the shelf parts. Also your advise about checking, cleaning and tightening connections is good. I visited your site for shifter bushing replacement and appreciate your efforts to support other VW lovers. You are a great resource to the VW community. I hope that in the future you visit the STF Thing181 forum on a regular basis. Your posts are appreciated. Do you feel that adding relay circuits just add more stuff to go bad or do you think it can be a solution? Do you have any experience with the SR17X starter? Thanks... K-mann

I just did this myself, and it works great. I added a little twist: I routed the key ON position (not the START position) to a separate momentary switch on the dash, then to the 30amp relay. In this way, it bypasses the feature where you have to twist the key completely OFF then START again whenever the engine doesn't start on the first time, something I personally don't care for.

Kubelmann wrote:Do you feel that adding relay circuits just add more stuff to go bad or do you think it can be a solution? Do you have any experience with the SR17X starter?...

I'll step in here. "Parts left out cost nothing and can not fail" so if you aren't having a problem IMO you shouldn't add relays - if they were needed the factory would've provided them. But over time, as components age and circuit resistance increases, using relays is an attractive alternative to restoring the whole system to "like-new" condition. I've been at this since the late `60s and have never needed to resort to a starter "booster" relay on any 12V Type I or III...Type IIs have a considerably longer current path and are more likely to need one, although I still consider it the lazy-man's answer - if the whole electrical system is in prime condition, no relays should be needed.
That said, my daily-driver `69 Beetle has a relay so the headlamps only come on if the ignition is "on" (simulating the action of the `71-up bug's stock wiring with "X"-terminal ignition & headlamp switches). I put it in many years ago after the third time I had to go jump-start my Dad when he'd parked the car with the lights on. Necessary? Not really, but it doesn't hurt anything since it could be easily bypassed if it should ever fail...same goes for a starter-booster relay if you mount it in an accessible location (like near the battery rather than under the car).
SR17X starters are wonderful and I highly recommend them..the only downside is their greater weight, but I used them religiously in racecars despite that...a couple of pounds is a small price to pay IMO to improve your chances of restarting a hot high-compression engine afer a shunt so you can finish a race. And since they're self-supporting and don't rely on a bushing in the bellhousing, they're ideal for 6V-12V conversions.

ricroz wrote:...it bypasses the feature where you have to twist the key completely OFF then START again whenever the engine doesn't start on the first time, something I personally don't care for.

Drive a VW long enough and this becomes second-nature. The feature is there to keep you from accidentally engaging the starter against a running engine which could damage (if not destroy) the starter and/or flywheel teeth. Bypass it at your own peril...each to his own I guess. Personally I find the way new cars are set up (the starter won't engage unless the clutch pedal is depressed fully) a great deal more annoying - plus it prevents you from moving a disabled car out of harm's way by using the starter for propulsion. Progress

As always Marc (master of all things vw) steps up and give common sense and reason to some debated issues. The stock Thing headlight switch has the internal funtion that turns of the headlights when the key is off. All relays offer a relief to the main wiring system and only direct main power to source and same poer and put the amps where the mussle is needed. They are a modern aid to preservation of current. Even if thye are not "needed" they add good function to any electrical circuit.

I've never had to install the "starter relay" yet myself. On my old 63 Beetle, my son's 73 Beetle, and now my 71 181, I lightly sanded the terminal ends at the starter and fuse panel with some emery cloth, and the "dead starter" condition was no more. Worked on all three vehicles. The 63 was a bit more persnickity though, as it was a 6 volt system. I used to have to clean up the fuse panel spades often, then I discovered dielectric grease. I would dab some of that on all of the cleaned up contacts, and that kept me from having to sand them down once a year.

Try it, you'll like it.

Marc wrote:I'll step in here. "Parts left out cost nothing and can not fail"

Mr Kettering was a smart guy. I use this quote all the time although I remember the ending as "cause no service problems". While I have been tempted to cheat with a 6V bug I never found a situation where even marginaly reasonable connections caused be a problem with a 12V beetle. (ie if they are bad enough to cause a problem you need to fix them anyway) For 6V beetles, rather than relays, I always converted to 12V and never regretted it.

Brian

bhowden wrote:

Marc wrote:....I remember the ending as "cause no service problems"...

Probably correct, I first read it many years ago and don't remember the exact wording. Another great one from him is: "A problem well stated is a problem half solved".

Captain Spalding wrote: The problem is that after 30 plus years the wires get old and the electrical resistance increases . . .

Although the electircal resistance does increase along the path from the battery to the starter, the statement above is not a correct explanation. The electrical resistance of copper wire does not change with age. The copper that makes up your wire is billions of years old even before they make the wire. What does happen is that corrosion on the surface of the wire increases the resistance between the wire and the connectors crimped onto it. You also get corrosion on all the electrical contacts in the path. Each one will add resistance. Count the number of metal to metal contacts in the horn's cct from battery + to battery - and you will understand why they rarely work.

I agree with Marc, adding a relay just covers up the real problem of poor continuity between connections. Fix the real problem.

The anti-repeat function of the ignition switch can be defeated on 72 and later cars by removing the switch and taking out one tiny part that prevents the action. No other car maker thinks this is a problem to be solved. My theory is that VW did this to compensate for the fact that early 6V flywheels did not have the ring gear teeth hardened like 12V FWs did. By having the non-repeat function they prevented damage to the gear teeth. Then they just kept the silly feature as if it was a safety item.

The resistance of the wiring does increase over time, but you're technically right in that it isn't due to just age. It's heat - it causes the wire structure to crystallize and that increases the resistance, which increases the heat produced by current flowing through it, which incr....you get the idea. Look at the Term 30 wires on just about any old 6V bug and you'll see the insulation is blistered & blackened. Periodic cleaning of the connectors (and checking that they're a nice tight fit) will minimize the problem.