914/Subaru

[Dale M.]

Anybody putting a 2.0 or larger Subaru (boxer) motor is a 914 chassis?.... Seem like the 914 would be a excellent handling platform for Auto-X race car (low center of gravity/ mid engine) but looking for the advantage of more horse power, modern electronics engine controls....

I know its sacrilege to put a WC motor in 914 chassis, it it also seems like a logical mating of technologies.....

Dale

[Cohibra45]

http://www.914world.com/index.php

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php

[Piledriver]

It's been done many times, but don't underestimate the work/cost to get the cooling system right, or for getting a trans to live w/200-300HP.
Or of keeping the car from breaking in half due to stresses it was never designed for (+ age/rust etc)

There's even a kit to modify the Suby trans for 2WD. (a low mile used Boxter 6 speed would be cheaper/stronger/axles fit)

You might as well install an alloy V8 IMHO, same amount of work, and little more money, any additional weight is in the middle.

Regardless, all it takes is a large bag of money and lots of time...And a sawzall.

AX want torque, flat wide powerband. Shifting costs time.

I have always wondered how a 944 automatic (w/modified bell housing for the starter) would do with a big T4.

[capsoval]

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 9&t=129364

[Paul Illick]

Beg to differ Mr. Driver, but I respectfully suggest you might be mistaken about a few things.

It's been done many times, but don't underestimate the work/cost to get the cooling system right, or for getting a trans to live w/200-300HP.

It's always good advice to not underestimate, of course. Fortunately it's been done often enough now that costs are pretty well known.

The 901 is actually strong enough for a V8, no problem at all for a Subaru. I jettisoned it because that transmission is really old technology. There's a reason for the acronym SLAP (shifts like a Porsche), and that's compounded because transmission technology has progressed a lot in the last thirty years, at least as much as engine technology. Unfortunately the 901's design dates from even before that. You have to shift the 901 like a polite gentleman, even a polite elderly gentleman, and if you want a car that's fun to drive fast that's really not acceptable. You don't HAVE to change the transmission, but you sure do get a lot of return for doing that work. The car seems almost modern after the upgrade because you can concentrate on driving rather than hitting that second gear gate just right. As far as cost.... well, like most things in life you get what you pay for, and the Subaru is excellent bang for the buck compared to a big 4, six, rotary, or V8.

Or of keeping the car from breaking in half due to stresses it was never designed for (+ age/rust etc)

I honestly don't understand your statement. I've never heard of that happening because of an engine, any engine, only because of rust or the stresses of racing with big sticky tires. And if you're going through all that work and expense to convert a car that's about to rust in half, well, that's just not smart anyway. I don't consider that an issue.

There's even a kit to modify the Suby trans for 2WD. (a low mile used Boxter 6 speed would be cheaper/stronger/axles fit)

Could be, but the Boxster's large, long, heavy, and only been done once that I'm aware of, so you're talking about at least three times the cost and complexity. You're also going to cut a lot of the trunk out, if that's any concern.

You might as well install an alloy V8 IMHO, same amount of work, and little more money, any additional weight is in the middle.

Yeah, sorry Pile, my experience is very different. I have a friend who's done two 914/SBC's, and that's actually the reason I chose the Subaru. With a V8 you do get all the hp/torque you can use, but you also change the weight bias to much higher in the car, totally changing the car's balance and what it needs from the suspension. The wonderful thing about the 914 is its lightweight agility, and a V8, even an alloy one, changes that. I don't even know how much suspension modification you'd need to do to make things right (never seen one that the owner considered "right"), but it will never be that lightweight and agile car again. With a Subaru engine you haven't changed the weight dramatically, and even putting the radiator in the front doesn't change things any more than removing the spare tire. That means you can use any of the good 914 race suspension parts and have exactly the same lightweight, balanced and agile car as when it was aircooled.

Regardless, all it takes is a large bag of money and lots of time...And a sawzall.

This is the comment I've heard most often from Jake Raby, and it never fails to irritate me because what it infers just isn't true. You need as much or more money for a six, big 4 or V8 and there is no sawzall work needed on the car. None. It's easier to do a little, but not necessary and no more work than putting a GT style oil cooler in front. I removed small pieces that could be reversed with less work than minor rust repair IF I ever wanted to revert back, which I don't and won't. In fact I don't know of ANY 914 conversion that has ever reverted back to aircooled. Do you? No one with a conversion is going back, there's no point, so that's really irrelevant.

AX want torque, flat wide powerband. Shifting costs time.

True. Happily torque is the principal characteristic of turbo engines. GOBS of torque. And with the higher redlines of modern engines you don't need to shift as much, either. So no problem that I can see there.

I have always wondered how a 944 automatic (w/modified bell housing for the starter) would do with a big T4.

Ouch, even that idea hurts. I don't see any reason for a car like the 914 to have an automatic unless you have a prosthetic leg or something. I'm old myself, but not THAT old.

I like 914's, Pile. Aircooled or watercooled, they're just plain fun cars. Making them more modern and more fun isn't a bad thing UNLESS of course you want to have concours type car shows in your future, or are buying the car as a pure investment. Both those things are legitimate, but for me they're also boring and the opposite of owning a car to have fun with. I think I know what I'm talking about, I've done both sides... built and raced aircooled cars since the late 60's, and that red 914/WRX Cap mentioned is mine.

[Piledriver]

Paul, your car is of course exquisite.

You have been around the block and know all the weak areas of a 914 chassis, what to look for and how to fix it properly.
I have seen and heard of many 914s that were "fine" until beaten on, then the hidden rust worm damage started showing up.

My main point was not to underestimate the work/costs involved---yours was hardly a weekend project, nor a fast JDM half cut>stuff it in a 914 deal.

Most of the estimates I have seen for a "proper" Porsche 6>914 swap run >$10k.
I'm guessing you probably have ~as much in yours.

(Personally I'd much rather have the Suby swap. as I am in the "trailers are for boats" camp)

The automatic idea was strictly about cutting time off an AX course.
Old folk need not apply, it would almost certainly be manually shifted.

No power gets delivered when a manual trans clutch is in.
With an auto, "never lift" is the shifting mode.
The Tq converter would also take most of the traction/CV breaking shock out of the system.
An automatic is the closest thing we have handy to a Lenco (Which is fundamentally an automatic (planetary gears) with a clutch up front)

[Paul Illick]

Paul, your car is of course exquisite.

Thanks. Really. But most important in my view is that it's fun as hell.

I have seen and heard of many 914s that were "fine" until beaten on, then the hidden rust worm damage started showing up.

Sure, but that's not a Subaru-only thing, that's true no matter what engine's in there. They're old cars and if you beat on them you should expect you'll have to fix what breaks. The alternative is what... not drive it hard? Get a Miata?

Most of the estimates I have seen for a "proper" Porsche 6>914 swap run >$10k.
I'm guessing you probably have ~as much in yours.

I have that much in mine now, but not for the engine swap. There were two stages to my car, swapping engines, and then swapping transmissions. For the car with just the WRX engine on the 901 transmission the total cost, including the car, the Carrera front end, the Fuchs and a new set of Falken Azenis was about $6000. I got the car as a roller for $500 and the WRX motor for $600, so that might be hard to replicate, but not impossible. I have a stack of receipts and if you buy me a beer one of these days would be happy to show them to you.

I just want to note that my cost is about what you'd pay for a Raby engine KIT, and you'd still have an antique motor with half the horsepower. I mention that only because what really set me off was your Sawzall comment. That's Raby's old marketing scheme, if you want an engine swap you'll have to "lay the sawzall to it". Those are his exact words. And they are not true. I'm apparently allergic to that kind of comment, sorry.

I don't have any issue with people who want to keep their cars stock and in fact I enjoy going to concours shows. But I also feel for those folks, kind of the same way I feel for people who won't consider anything beyond the missionary position. No problem as long as they're happy with it, but for me I'm an old hot rodder, there's lots more than the missionary, and I don't think I've ever had any hobby car that didn't get itself "improved". It's a big wonderful world, so why not celebrate it? All of it.

.

[Piledriver]

Understood and agreed...
If I ever run into to you, beer will be had by all, no receipts required.

You did very well, most people would have to spend >2K on a proper paint job alone.

But in minor defense of Jakes viewpoint, the "sawzall" isn't for fitting the engine...
It's for fitting the radiator/airflow to/from same.
There (apparently) be Dragons getting that right.
---You must admit there are more than a few hack jobs out there...Just hit http://www.renegadehybrids.com/ site for their "wall of shame" (Getting old, had to Google the name, no direct link, frame site)

OTOH, you have do do ~ as much to fit a GT style oil cooler setup, and not a soul would turn up a nose..
The dealer installed AC setup on mine was a total hack job on the spare tire well floor, and it was apparently done by the book.

I personally am a Sawzall owner and proudly wield it whenever required.