What size coilovers fit the rear of a std 1970 beetle

[volksbugly]

Like the topic title says...
What size coilover will fit the rear of a 1970 standard beetle with irs. I don't want the chrome cheapy ones. I am looking at
removing my torsion bars adding in some adjustable spring plates and spending aroud 800$ on some good coilovers..

If anyone has done this and has pictures I would love to see! I am also going to add a Kaferbar setup.
also if anyone knows specs of rear shocks please let me know.
ie shock height, full compression, full extension, ideal ride height.
-bugly

[Marc]

The shock absorber perches were never intended to support the full weight of the car, to make it worthwhile to convert to coillover you'll need a proper subframe. The brackets on the diagonal arms are only welded to their sheetmetal skin - again, serious modifications are needed if you expect to drive it hard.
I've always used shocks and springs from Carrera (now QA1) - there's something in their product line for almost any application imagineable.
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/index.html

[volksbugly]

The shock absorber perches were never intended to support the full weight of the car, to make it worthwhile to convert to coillover you'll need a proper subframe. The brackets on the diagonal arms are only welded to their sheetmetal skin - again, serious modifications are needed if you expect to drive it hard.
I've always used shocks and springs from Carrera (now QA1) - there's something in their product line for almost any application imagineable.
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/index.html

I completely understand that, all I want to know is what size coilover will fit? Diameter? length :extended, compressed, and suggested ride height.

So here is exactly what I am planing for the rear,
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1148596
http://www.eagleperformance.com/CoilOverKits.html
then some good dual spring coilovers, <<< this is where I need help

[Marc]

...I completely understand that, all I want to know is what size coilover will fit? Diameter? length :extended, compressed, and suggested ride height....

Obviously, you haven't grasped my point at all. The bolt-on components on your shopping list do nothing to address the concerns I raised. To do this right, you'll need to do serious fabrication of a subframe that provides stronger upper shock perches, and use aftermarket control arms (or build those yourself as well).

What off-the shelf shock might fit in the stock location, with a stock control arm, is irrelevant.

[volksbugly]

I guess you didn't really look at that Mendeola Kafer bar it does address shock perches, to say it does nothing... well yeah whatever...
This is a daily driver, driving it hard isn't really going to happen.

I got under my car and did measurements So I figured out what size I need.

Thanks for your help really appreciate it.

[Marc]

The Kafer bar ties into the stock upper shock perches but they remain in the stock location, which really isn't optimum for a coillover suspension. But if that's the way you want to go, and the lower shock bracket on the control arm remains near stock location as well, you'll be looking for a shock that's approximately 18" extended and 11¾" compressed at stock ride height (shorter if you intend to go lower). You'll also need a short spring (especially if the stock lower brackets are retained). Stock mounting eye bushings take a 12mm bolt; you could ream the perches out for ½" bolts if necessary. I expect it'll be more of a challenge to find shocks & springs that'll fit than it would be to build a proper subframe that accepts commonly-available components.

...This is a daily driver, driving it hard isn't really going to happen...

So what's the point of this exercise? Just to see how much money you can spend without making any actual improvements?

This whole thread should be appended to the first one discussing (the folly of) this plan:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 1&t=133397

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Volksbugly, I’m kind of stepping out of my normal posting area (off-road) but consider this. As Marc said (I am not sure about the Carrera coil over shocks as I haven’t looked at them for many, many years) the coilovers you normally see for VW’s are just overload springs and, at best, and the shocks supplied are usually next to worthless (you also inferred that). I am not sure if the Carrera coilovers are designed for being the principle suspension or are still secondary supports.

Also consider this: you are going to have to do some pan supports (tying the torsion bar to the pan better than it is in stock form for example). You will probably want some kind of cage, preferably a full cage (unless you are restoring a VW to show room condition), I personally think everyone should have one not only for protection 360° protection but for reinforcing the VW pan, frame head and rear torsion tube. Remember, VW pans have a tendency to bend/sag in the tunnel up by the front cross-piece just behind the firewall. My pan started to crack (glass buggy) at the e-brake hole. I was told that before they shortened the pan that crack was already there and had been re-welded at least twice; I ended up having to box-in the area to stop the cracking.

For a daily driver, and as far as a Kafer bar goes, EMPI sells one (I tried for about an hour to find it but it is difficult. EMPI does not call theirs a Kafer bar but something else. I look in the suspension and off-road sections but must have gazed over it but I know it is in there somewhere) but I think it is too light of weight and will flex with anything more than moderate use or a hard stare at it. Remember this rule of thumb; if you have it you will use it. Even if you were just trying to support the weak transaxle mounts (aka pickle forks) the EMPI unit looks a little iffy to me. Daily drivers have a tendency to get driven hard when performance parts have been added.

The Mendeola Kafer bar looks like a heck of a unit with three triangles and the ability for one arm to work against/oppose the others via the transaxle… expensive for a daily driver though.

You are asking for a lot of work for a daily driver. Marc is pretty good on these things and I for one, trust his judgment. The short shock and short coil over are going to be a problem. If you leave you car at stock height then Marc probably gave you what information you need but I would be sure to double check it by cycling your suspension throughout its arcs and do the measurements at the shock mounts as well as at the stub axle (to make sure that you have room in the wheel well) as not everything is the same on all cars. Also, for either the stock or lowered or raised dimension, tire side in both heights, widths and weights are needed.


If the car has been lowered (or raised); then the ownership of obtaining the proper dimensions is solely on you as we have no idea what has been done.

No matter whether you are going to use stock length, shorter (or longer) than normal coilovers especially ones that are replacing the torsion bars (remember, a coil spring is nothing more than a torsion spring in a tightly compacted circle), you will need to provide a set of: dimensions (compressed and at droop), coil size/outside dimensions that you have to deal with (min and max) and the weight it is supposed to handle (spring rate) is also something you are going to have to figure out. Commercial off the shelf for non off-road applications are probably going to be pretty scarce and pricy. If they are available then some of the road racers may know about them which brings the price up again.

Are you going to go for sway bars?

What are you planning on for the front end? Remember, torsion bars up there too. There are IFS kits out there for $3K+.

Not to be negative but I hope this helps some on decisions.

Lee

[volksbugly]

The Kafer bar ties into the stock upper shock perches but they remain in the stock location, which really isn't optimum for a coillover suspension. But if that's the way you want to go, and the lower shock bracket on the control arm remains near stock location as well, you'll be looking for a shock that's approximately 18" extended and 11¾" compressed at stock ride height (shorter if you intend to go lower). You'll also need a short spring (especially if the stock lower brackets are retained). Stock mounting eye bushings take a 12mm bolt; you could ream the perches out for ½" bolts if necessary. I expect it'll be more of a challenge to find shocks & springs that'll fit than it would be to build a proper subframe that accepts commonly-available components.

...This is a daily driver, driving it hard isn't really going to happen...

So what's the point of this exercise? Just to see how much money you can spend without making any actual improvements?

This whole thread should be appended to the first one discussing (the folly of) this plan:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 1&t=133397

I consider driving hard taking it to a track, and riding on 3 wheels, not going 70mph mph around the 60mph suggested speed sign.
The purpose of this car is to have fun, learn, and improve the handling.

dude your negative vibes are turning me off of shoptalk...
I understand your trying to help, and maybe I am just being over sensitive, but when someone says "I completely understand that" usually means that...

sometimes people just want a simple answer... btw thank you for getting me those numbers, but I already ordered my shocks. I actually came up with 16" extended, 10.5 inch compressed and 12.5 stock ride height.
I have boxed arms
I have a cage
next is to get the Stiffy kafer
and my coilover deletion kit ie... adjustable swing arms

I want to put them all in on a weekend, but of course I need to know what size shock I need.
its a 6 point cage and I am also tying into the back bumper mounts, the new upper shock mount will be welded there, very close to stock location.
I will post pictures and full specs when its all done.

[Marc]

...dude your negative vibes are turning me off of shoptalk...

I apologize, I'm certainly not trying to do that - I'm just trying to help you NOT spend a whole bunch of money on this project when the return on investment will be questionable IMO. I'm not the only one here who's advised you that this isn't the smart way to proceed, but since your mind's made up I'm not going to spend any more time trying to talk you out of this - let us know how it turns out.

[Piledriver]

I think all Mark was trying to emphasize was that coil overs, by themselves, not only require better upper and lower mounting points... but basically won't allow it corner one iota better than a torsion bar setup, assuming you don't make some (undefined) beneficial suspension geometry changes at the same time.

I rather suspect fjcamper would tell you the same...

The only effective use I have seen for them (other than extreme wallet lightening power) is on very light buggys that needed a much lighter shock/spring combo than can be had with torsions and std shocks or for corner weight balance, but adjustable spring plates work for that for ~90% less.

Not trying to be a drag, just calling it as seen.

As long as you understand and don't mind dropping a $K for something that only looks cool, it's all good, you won't be the first or last, folks put 22" wheels on minivans all the time to far less effect.

I wish they still sold the 4-way "coil overs" , in the ancient of days I had a set for a 76 Monte Carlo on my 71 std and it could effortlessly slalom the reflectors on a 2 lane at 70+ MPH, and didn't ride much worse than my 914 ( with dual swaybars and sticky tires that still can't do that slalom at >55)

4 Ways were somewhat like helper springs, but normally clamped down at rest/zero preload... and worked in both directions...you COULD apply preload up OR down... resisted roll, squat and dive, cheap too.
They never caught on in the USA for some reason, still sold for the off-road crowd in Oz.

[volksbugly]

I was looking again into shocks and trying to guestimate some information because well... I've changed things all around and never put on my other stuff. I am ending up wanting to run a wider track so I'm pushing the trailing arms out 3 inches on each side with some 944 porsche trailing arms the ones with (antilock brakes are wider) I have deep dish wheels ET51 and 3 inch wider fenders. I must have been in a pissy ass mood in the previous comments. I got and installed the stiffy and I'm just running the trailing arms. So I get 3 inch wider track on each side, toe adjustment in the rear, stronger axles in the back. I'm going to eventually put in some connectors/hiem joints to go from the bottom of the plates on the rollcage in the luggage tray to the top shock perch, but its not a priority. (still have to put the cage in, which will mean rewiring my megasquirt.