Wheel track/Wheel adapters

[Jprather]

Hello forum,

I am trying to dial in my suspension and want to extend the rear wheel track to fill out the fenders. Here is a pic of my Baja.

image.jpg

I was planning to install a set of Thing drums to push it out approx. an inch. I was then going to add these adapters to use a set of Ansen Sprint rims.

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Does anyone have experience using this type of adapter? Any opinions or other options?

[Dale M.]

I have adapters on all four wheels of my buggy.... Getting from wide five to Chevy pattern....

Some people use them and never have issues, some will swear all four will break the moment you go over 18 mile a hour and you are more than 1/4 mile from your house....

I don't see any problem using them but would inspect them once in a while for "possible' cracking....

Dale

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I am not a big fan of either spacers or adapters (especially stamped adapters) but I think I have recently seen that some of the car manufactures are now using them (which doesn't necessarily make it right either).

Given my prejudice on the subject: I think it comes down to how are you using your Baja. If you are using your Baja for other than mild off-road, around town or you are street racing then I would not recommend using them. In my opinion you would be taking a chance but, as Dale said, keep an eye on the adapters as far as being tight against the drum and the wheel up tight against the adapter (proper torque on the bolts or studs on each) and you should be OK for light to maybe medium duty use.

Lee

[Marc]

Considering the cost of the Thing drums, you're going to be making quite an investment in "cosmetics". They offer no improvement in braking performance; there are alternatives worth considering which would give you a similar "look" and better brakes to go with the increased load you'll be putting on the wheel bearings. One example that comes to mind is Porsche 924/944 rear discs, which increase the track width significantly. There's a huge selection of used Porsche rims in the 5x130 bolt pattern so you might find something you like as well as the Ansens - although most Porsche rims have a ton of backspace and may require spacers to regain the desired track width. Some <1" spacers come stock and can be had fairly cheaply; expect to pay ~$75 and up a pair for custom thicker ones. But the money's better spent for a quality product than on a flimsy sheetmetal adapter. Heck, you could probably find someone to make some decent 5x130 to 5x4¾" adapters if you simply must run Chev rims.

I used stamped-steel adapters many years ago on a street-driven Baja (it had 5-lug type III rear drums and 'Ghia discs on the front) - I wouldn't even consider them for off-road use. Back in the day they were made in Taiwan; if they're from Red China now I'd be expecting even lower quality.
Issues are that they'll bend if stressed and that the studs have a tendency to break loose. The latter can be addressed with a tack weld, the former arguably is better than having them break, but you'll have a heckuva wheel wobble until you get a replacement.
With any adapter, the studs are typically either "Chev" 7/16-20" or "Ford" 1/2-20" and the commonly-available lugnuts in those threads aren't big enough to properly cover the relatively large seat on rims which were intended for VW ball-seat lugnuts. The Ansens you're considering probably won't be subject to that issue, but for the benefit of future readers of this thread it needs to be mentioned. Larger nuts are available from places like Jeg's, but they take a 1" socket so there's insufficient clearance on some styled rims - and they're for 45° tapered seats, not quite right for "VW" rims, but still preferable to undersized ones which can pull through.
A solution is to remove the SAE studs from the adapters and fit them with m14x1.5 studs (a good source is `71-up Bus rears) so you run Bus or Porsche ball-seat nuts.

They should sell these adapters individually so you can replace a bent one, and because IMO their only legitimate application is to allow carrying a single spare tire when you have mismatched front & rear lugbolt patterns.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

To add to what Marc said, I have also seen bent adapters and some of them were up for sale. I have also seen them rusted and pitted which can/does weaken them up a lot and it doesn't take much pitting to get there too. The chrome that I have seen on the stamped adapters is not a good chroming looking like maybe a single dip... for looks only.

I knew about the bolts and studs but Marc surprised me with the lug nuts bit.

As I had said: light duty use but I also said "maybe medium duty use" which I should back off of as I am not really comfortable with what some people consider 'medium duty' is to what I consider 'medium duty' to be. The light duty use would be more of a "if you have to" rather than a blessing to do it. I also have seen them used to mount trailer/tow transport tires onto the rear of a buggy.

I have some cast AL 4 lug VW to Chev bolt pattern (they came on my glass buggy) which after seen how they were mounted to the drum I would not use them other than for transport myself and then I would be nervious.

Lee

[Piledriver]

It probably matters a great deal how the "spacers" or adapters are made...

I have (and fully plan to use) some 5x130>5x130 x52mm spacers I bought to allow use of some nice 996TT twists I picked up for my 914...

They appear to be machined from a solid hunk of aluminum.

I'm drilling the 914 rear hubs 5x130 and installing proper press in studs, spacers>hub is taper seat, will be installed with Locktite and torqued to spec. The spacers themselves have pressed in 14mm studs.

If you have hubcentric wheels I strongly encourage you to buy the hubcentric spacer version and to add a hub to the rear hub or drum, very easy quick job with a lathe, just use a bit of aluminum and 2-3 thou interference, heat it up>drops on. gets rid of a lot of mystery shakes.

Late 914 rotors are hubcentric, I/m not sure if you can get Ghia rotors that way., but you could probably make up something pretty easy if you use the larger VW/Porsche hub size. (late 914 wheels same as the twists, can'r tecall the size, slept since then)

Note: SCCA and some other sanctioning bodies disallow this type of spacer in most classes of racing, you CAN use 2" spacers if you use very long studs and just have the spacer slide over the studs.
(you can get 4+ inch long studs for this reason)

[helowrench]

Late 914 rotors are hubcentric, I/m not sure if you can get Ghia rotors that way., but you could probably make up something pretty easy if you use the larger VW/Porsche hub size. (late 914 wheels same as the twists, can'r tecall the size, slept since then)

This one shows it, but does not speak of it in the description.
An email to John would remove all doubt.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Disc-Brake ... -075br.htm

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I had to look up hub centric (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8449utuw-VE) as I had never heard the term before.

As 'pile said, part of the spacer problem is quality of the spacer itself: machined vs. cast and the material + heat treat itself; also dissimilar metals could come into play (have you ever taken an AL wheel off a car that has been on it for a long time? the mounting surface can be pitted and thin areas may have material missing).

Depending on the type of stud (fully threaded in this case ?) the threads, which are the weakest part of the assembly could be in jeopardy and could end up in shear which is one thing you don't want the threads to do. Most racing bodies want 2 1/2 D (diameters/length) of stud showing on top of/after leaving the lug nut (this is so that they do have some holding power if they back off slightly and don't leave the stud/bolt. Another road hazard on the race course). Long bolts are something I was taught not to do unless there was no other way and even then it wasn't good. More length/distance in which the bolt/stud could stretch in.

Spacers are one thing, adapters are another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B4dAoQ5cIc This is a typical impromptu/extemporaneous video and drags on but the end information is good... when he gets to it.

Lee

(pardon me but my bias is showing)

[Jprather]

Thank you all for the info. What i am trying to do is use a set of Ansen rims and widen the wheel track by 2 to 3 inches on each side in the rear. I love the look of the rims and I want to fill out my fenders. The front tires peek out past the fenders about an inch. I would like the rears to do the same.

I thought using Thing drums, adapters and spacers would get me there. However after reading the responses I think this is a very bad idea. Too many possible trouble points.

I am open to ideas on how to do this. I will be driving the Baja hard when possible, mostly on the streets. The drums I have now are 4 bolt. Excluding my 'Thing drum' idea, Here are the 2 other options I know of -

1) if there is such a thing, use a 2" to 3" adapter and convert from a 4 bolt to Chevy 5

2) install Porsche 924/944 trailing arms and convert to Chevy 5. Add a spacer if needed.

I have been thinking about this for months and as you can see I haven't gotten very far. Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[Piledriver]

A 5 lug><5 lug adapter can use long studs and also lug bolts to keep things together.

As long as you are not trying to do it on a 5x100 pattern with 14mm studs and you have some meat left it should be at least as strong as no adapter at all.

(That's my failed point from before, restated)

[Marc]

Have you ever seen a 4x130 to 5x4¾" adapter? The thing that's unsettling about them is that they are secured to the drum by capscrews in 3 of the 4 lugbolt holes; in the 4th, an offset stud is used which passes through the adapter. It's prevented from unscrewing by a flange which engages a bore on the backside of the adapter, which aligns it to furnish the needed location of the 5th Chev-pattern lugnut - it runs loose in the brakedrum threads until the wheel is mounted and the lugnut pulls on it. There just isn't any other way to do it because of the way the two bolt circles overlay.
A very sketchy arrangement, yet it works well enough for street use...I'd be leery of it for "hard" driving, though.
Another option you may want to consider is the use of aftermarket Bug drums that are already drilled for the 5x4¾" pattern (or "blank" ones, and find a local machineshop to drill them) - with the pattern conversion out of the way, you would "only" need spacers if rims with the needed offset aren't available. These could be either the bolt-on style, or (if the drums were fitted with long studs) the "pass-through" type - either would be preferable to the stamped-steel kind.
Again, your investment would not be improving the efficacy of the brakes any. But you could fit aftermarket disc brakes, for which Chev/blank rotors are available: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D4126%2DKT

[Piledriver]

That's why I said 5 to 5 lug at >112mm BC would likely be kosher, rather than 4>5 lug.

Even the 4x130>5x130 would be IMHO ~ok with a 5x130 drilled long press in studs in all locations.
(it's really just a spacer at that point)