Using paper to study panel making

General tips/tricks/tools that could be utilized on any platform.
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

It looks like I will be doing some work on my patch panels soon. As plain paper is a great method to investigate metal forming, I will now post what I know about it.

Using paper to learn how to make shapes in sheet metal has it's bad side and the bad side is paper won't actually stretch or shrink. You can only mimic a shape without actually shrinking or stretching (sort of like expressing a digital value as opposed to a analog value).Without stretching or shrinking , everything would look like a Stealth Bomber with no true convex or concave shapes to it or another good example is 10 sided dice or something similar.Panels that can't be seen from the outside can be made like this but it would be objectionable on a body panel. Another skill that can be used to depict this is patterns for making clothes. Cloth is not usually stretched or shrunk to make shapes either.

The first rule of mimicking a shape is that a inside to outside bend, (shrinking/stretching or 'longway' bends are not possible); has to entirely go across the piece that it exists on if done directly with only one single bend. This rule counts when a bend goes just across the corner as well. What happens when a regular bend tries to cross another regular bend is that the bends will try to straighten out the other bend. A single curve or multiple curves can go across the entire piece and individual bends or curves can be made but they have to be perpendicular to each other OR need to meet up with other bends. So one bend can't cross another bend. Paper can be used successfully to study a panel shape if this is kept in mind.

Image
Super beetle with attitude
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 17881
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

I was going to not post something but then I decided to put my 2 cents in.

Paper patterns will work for somethings but using card stock or lightweight cardboard (such as cereal or light weight shopping boxes) should work better. They have the thickness to duplicate/mimic (to a certain extent) closer to what metal will do and hold shape better than paper will do. For small patch pieces paper should work OK but in longer sections where there is a gap paper wants to sag because of gravity.

Paper usually does work better for transferring data from say holes or cutouts than thicker material does. Using a pencil (using the side of the lead or something like that) to scribe the edges of objects to be located; or if it is a pattern of the area to be patched the round head of a ballpeen hammer can be used to define the pattern via. a marking in the paper or a total cut out. The hammer method works well with cardstock also.

When bending in flanges either for use or stiffening flanges paper will not do the job as well. If your careful, cardboard like old cereal boxes (w/o bends) can be worked to make somewhat of an arc.
DSC04844.JPG
DSC04845.JPG
Also, be sure to drill/notch the intersections of bends to get rid of stress fractures. 90° bends take 90° cuts on the ends of the two legs but 45° should be 22.5° cut (If I remember correctly) and relieve the edges of both legs to accommodate material thickness. The pix are of a thicker material but the idea is there.

Pinching fastener holes in card stock to check location can be done with a leather punch or by sharpening one end of a proper dia. metal tube then putting it in place and striking it with a hammer. Not perfect but does work.

Just a few quick thoughts.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

My point here is to teach the use of paper to understand the shape that is desired to be made and not actually make a pattern. In order to make a pattern of a convex or concave shape the pattern material would have to be able to be shrunk or stretched. This info can be used separately or with my thread
"Image and explanation of how a dome/convex shaped is formed" and "Tucking metal on the edge/Wheel well test piece".I'm planning on making another patch panel soon and that will be in "Tucking metal on the edge/Wheel well test piece".
Super beetle with attitude
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 17881
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

"In order to make a pattern of a convex or concave shape the pattern material would have to be able to be shrunk or stretched." … or pie cut w/or without the addition of material(s) for shaping. I think I understand where you are going and will follow it.

Lee
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

Here's the most direct example I'm aware of and it's making a dogleg for a rear door opening. There are lots of images/vids on the net for this because of the 'Shrinker/Stretcher kits like from Harbor Freight.

If you take a L shape and try to bend it to the shape of a dogleg it won't bend without buckling. The buckling is evidence of too much material in a certain location. If you cut what I'll term as 'relief's' in the material and then try to bend it to the desired shape, then you can 'Mimic' the shape and this will disclose where it needs to be shrunk or stretched. What is actually happening to the material is it is being bent at multiple single locations. It is not a curve but a secession of these single bends in a row. The more relief's that are made the more gradual the 'mimic' is but still is not a curve.Its the same as taking multiple single shapes and adding them together as well because they are angled in respect to each other. If the same L shape is bent the other way it will disclose that the material needs to be shrunk. So the relief's will either cause GAPS or will OVER LAP whether it needs shrinking or stretching. Edit: Another important aspect is that if you look at the posted image with the gaps, The outside part has the the greatest circumference and there for needs the most amount of stretching compared to the inside.

Image
Super beetle with attitude
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 17881
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

6f30f31291180794[1] copy.jpg
One type of the relief cuts or pie cuts bending in the opposite direction I was talking about.

Do I know everything... heck no but I was wise enough and lucky enough to be in a position to listened to those who did know both; both at work and those in different parts of the auto industry. When I started working in aircraft design there was new technology being used and I had to listen to detail discussion before moving forth on my assignments.

You can only shrink or stretch metal (and some other things) only so much before you go too far. There are minimum bend radiuses that control other things. There are many ways of bending metal (some of which I have shown and talked about as well have some others who post or used to post here) there are additional limits and the limits are in so many different ways involving doing things.

I successfully "heat bent square tube" with advice from experts but even then there were repercussions in the finished materials that showed up several years later; metal has a memory of sorts and doesn't like it when you do things it isn't prepared for. I also did kerf bending, the opposite as your picture shows, of rectangular tube for a body lift.

Part of my job for most of the 34 years dealt with either drawing the design of others, checking the work of others or giving advice when dealing with materials and rules.

I would love to be able to justify the shrinking and stretching tools as well as a "wheel" plus some of the other metal forming tools. I have a bead roller I bought for strengthening or bending flat metal but it sits still in the box because things changed and I found other ways of doing the same thing.

Depending on what I think you are doing those tools should help but you will have a learning process going on along with it. Also remember that heat can restore the metal's original memory and it can fight with you :wink: :roll: :lol: .

FWIW

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

A paper representation does not need to be heated :shock: . When I'm working with A36 (standard sheet metal) I'll include all of the tactics used for success. Heating a area to be worked to 'blue' has worked very well so far and I don't at this point see making the subject more convoluted beneficial.Heating the area to 'red' actually was not working as well. A separate thread on topics like 'heat bending' would be great but it mostly goes outside the scope of this topic.
Super beetle with attitude
User avatar
SCOTTRODS
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:15 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by SCOTTRODS »

Have you tried the Tape Transfer Pattern? Flexible patterns will allow you to achieve the shapes... pretty nearly all shapes that you find on Automotive bodies, even most customized bodies. If you are good with your pattern making, they will also transfer some pretty good detail as well... full smooth curves and shapes... all of it. You can also incorporate alignment marks or whatever they call them... to know what part should get the shape and stay constant while using the patterns.



I realize your discussion was based on the availability of paper, versus other materials for patterns and such. Exploration might be do-able using those same techniques of Flexible shape patterns...
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

It's another method to explore. Flexible patterns will return to their original shape, won't they? The paper method works two ways as it also teaches how to mimic plus shows where shrinking or stretching is needed. If you imagine/draw a circle on a flat piece of sheet metal you can also understand if the circles circumference is gong to need to be increased or decreased to make the shape.
I did use some flexible material or clay to get the rules down for paper and for shapes in general. If you mould modelling clay on 1 /2 of a sphere and then go to straighten it out ,it will be apparent that it tears the outside circumference the most.
Super beetle with attitude
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 17881
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

theKbStockpiler wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:31 pm A paper representation does not need to be heated :shock: . When I'm working with A36 (standard sheet metal) I'll include all of the tactics used for success. Heating a area to be worked to 'blue' has worked very well so far and I don't at this point see making the subject more convoluted beneficial.Heating the area to 'red' actually was not working as well. A separate thread on topics like 'heat bending' would be great but it mostly goes outside the scope of this topic.
Red only works on thicker stuff. Blue for thinner stuff. I was broaching the subject as thoughts but I won't anymore.

Lee
User avatar
SCOTTRODS
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:15 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by SCOTTRODS »

theKbStockpiler wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:41 pm It's another method to explore. Flexible patterns will return to their original shape, won't they? The paper method works two ways as it also teaches how to mimic plus shows where shrinking or stretching is needed. If you imagine/draw a circle on a flat piece of sheet metal you can also understand if the circles circumference is gong to need to be increased or decreased to make the shape.
I did use some flexible material or clay to get the rules down for paper and for shapes in general. If you mould modelling clay on 1 /2 of a sphere and then go to straighten it out ,it will be apparent that it tears the outside circumference the most.
The neat part about flexible shape patterns, is when you use them you can get a fairly good "rough cut size and shape" then as you work the metal, you get two different readings where the metal touches the pattern, it tells you it should be Shrinking time. Where there is no contact between the pattern and the metal, it requires Stretching. But again, I do like the paper use in discussion. It has it's place for sure. In my experience (albeit small) I can get a paper pattern to tell me the cut of the flat sheet Best, and from there I like using both the paper and flex pattern to find the final shape and arrangement of the piece. I'm still learning so keep the cool posts coming. I tend to save copies of all of these discussions as they all offer perspectives that can help me maybe figure out a problem I run into in the future. I hope to be able to actually start a Full body build within the next 5 years... Sounds like a long time, but I also have to gave the space to do it before I kick in the "go mode" on it. right now space is precious in my garage.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

I used some 'flexible' materials but I think the 'relief's' and drawing/imagining a circle on the flat piece superseded their use. A piece of modelling clay can have a circle scribed into it with it also cut into pie pieces. Modelling clay's viscosity changes by just the heat of the hand and anything elastic will spring back so it can't be laid down on a flat piece of steel to mark out what it was stretched on. What specific 'flexible' material is being referred to? Who makes it?

If a panel is covered with small pieces of tape , the shape made could have reliefs cut into it to transform it into the flat area that could be cut out for a curved panel. By using small pieces of tape the shape can be mimicked AND the shape will hold after being removed from the panel to be replicated. My belief is that when it comes down to going past ROUGHING in the basic shape that you will have to finish it up using your imagination and by making changes very slowly. Shapes can be made by doing the opposite so the rules do not always apply the same. A flat piece of steel can solely be shrunk around a sphere or it can be stretched over it and shrunk. I think I only went over the 'stretch and shrink over a dome' in the thread I posted on it. This stuff will come together when I make another patch panel. I have a lot of time into this so I know it has to be hard to grasp. One of the issues is that you can give someone a step by step description of how to make one specific shape but if they don't understand what is happening you have to make a step by step description for every shape possible. Lots of times ;maybe always the desired shape is going along well but then it starts to go into a direction that is not desired. That's why understanding what is happening while you are doing it is absolutely necessary.
Super beetle with attitude
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 17881
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

I wasn't going to post on this anymore but when talking about tape it got me going again.

Yes you can do that: lets say you are duplicating a domed piece and want to convert that into a flat pattern. Before you remove it you going to want to make some straight relief cuts that so that when the form is laid down it will end up with pie cuts that probably won't have straight edge cut lines. In the end this would end up by giving you the proper shape for reforming the flat stock.

I've done the tape thing several times and while it is a rough way to do it (in the world I worked in anyway), it ends up saving you a lot of time in duplicating the domed shape.

Lee
User avatar
SCOTTRODS
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:15 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by SCOTTRODS »

I posted a lengthy explanation of how the flexible pattern shows where you need to shrink and stretch... It got lost somehow in the shuffle of my sleep pattern rearrangement...

The flexible shape retained will either touch the flat stock sheet, or not. Where it touches, it is either "ON" or needs shrinking. If it has an air gap between the pattern and the metal, you would need to stretch it... This would also require some understanding of where to start and "roughing" a piece to a close shape to begin with, but is very good at exposing details missed.

It's advised to use a low tack tape for the initial layer, placing your index marks and Curve check lines on that layer, then laying down the second layer over that layer at a 45 degree angle or "bias" capturing the data between layers. It keeps them in place and allows for reading from either side. Once you have all the tape in place you remove it all and dust the tacky part with powder and it's ready to use. The flexible pattern can be turned inside out to make a left side panel from a right side panel as well, using the exact same data trapped in the pattern. Some folks like to lay more layers of tape. You can find a good person of the tape at proshaper.com
Wray Schelin is one of the early adopters of this method and sells the stuff to do it. You can easily buy it elsewhere though, and probably save a fair amount of money... not enough to bay a new English wheel or anything, but some cash could be saved.

I really appreciate you taking the time to do the research and posting your findings and explanations. I learn from everyone in the shaping world. This has been one of my favorite hobbies in life, and finding new and thoughtful info is excellent.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297
User avatar
theKbStockpiler
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Using paper to study panel making

Post by theKbStockpiler »

I'm really just interested in making patch panels or creating whole panels from multiple pieces so my approach does have limitations. Intuitively I believe that the flexible patterns could be 'dumbing' it down too much where as is will actually create more work in the long run. That's just my opinion from the stand point I'm at right now.

A lot of the skill in making shapes that need stretching/shrinking is that you have to train your mind to think in 3D.
Super beetle with attitude
Post Reply