Manx style of buggy chassis

[Ol'fogasaurus]

https://manxchassis.com/about_us.html

This comes from the Dave Barrette website; he build chassis for glass buggies. There is some additional information here that might help you if you are thinking about going with a "Manx" style of buggy using a stock VW pan or not.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I found this while looking for some other things on buggies. Tomorrow I will try to re-find the proper way of shortening the pan. There are several ways of doing it but one, while it may be harder, is a stronger and more proper way of doing it.

I'm also trying to find the pix of the way to change the frame head from BJ to R&P which I have or had somewhere. I have posted them before

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sh ... &FORM=VIRE

This is a video of what I feel is the proper way to shorten a VW pan. Normally, about an inch behind the e-brake and heater hole in the tunnel people cut straight down and across the floor or straight down the tunnel and angle back.

0010.JPG

If you notice that the cut starts in the same place but where it get to the flat area of the tunnel the cut goes horizontal for a ways then down.

The lower section of the tunnel where the beading is done is cut, not in line with the upper cut but between the beading in the flat spots. When you remove the sections of metal the slide things together you have a stronger tunnel and... if you want you could add doubles inside of the tunnel for additional strength.

My blue buggy kept breaking at the weld so a large doubler was added eliminating the e-brake which is where the metal was failing.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Changing from a BJ to a K&L front beam.

Ball-joint to K&L frame head change-over 01.jpg

This shows the front of the pan with the mount for the Ball-joint beam attach removed. This is held on with spot welds. You shouldn't have to cut this part of the pan off.

Ball-joint to K&L frame head change-over 02.jpg

This is a King and Link mount removed from a pan just like the BJ mount in the upper picture is.

Ball-joint to K&L frame head change-over 04.jpg

Ball-joint to L&L frame head change-over 03.jpg

This shows the new front end ready for a K&L beam to be added. Fully welding is a better idea for off-roading than spot welds are.

Lee

[SCOTTRODS]

I have done the cut on the Tunnel, using the "Z-Cut" method, but no floor pans were involved on my project. Hardest part is keeping the frame lined up straight while you put it back together. I literally built a jig to hang mine from and measure a million times for every time I placed a tack weld, because on just a tunnel, the movement caused by the weld can be pretty devastating if you let anything move. Mine turned out well, from cross measures and front to rear measures between the front end and rear end mounting points. I was more interested in building my own pans. The originals were Swiss cheese, but the tunnel was in great shape inside and out.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Scott, thanks for the additional information. I am sure you are right on the difficulties of welding the main section of the pan together. I think that is why they have welding tables that have holes in them at precise distances .

If you make the cuts the proper distance towards the rear of the pan, but cut across the tunnel and the floor pieces together, you still have to deal with the rear bend in the outside mounting flanges of the pan where the door ends roughly 15" forward of the rear of the pan), you have to deal with the foot relief area in the pan for the rear seats and the rise in the tunnel in the inside wall (not the interior of the torsion tube) of the torsion tube. I think that is why some do the angled cut version in the floor but you still have to deal with the foot well in the floor and the rise in the tunnel side of the pan.

If you are not dealing with a new body you also have to be sure what the mounting flange difference spread distances are in the body then match the mounting flange distances in the pan to it. I have had several bodies offered to me over the years and not all of them were the 14 1/2" shorter; e.g., 80" wheel base cut. Most varied between stock VW pan distances and the more common 80" wheel base modification distance but one was even shorter than that buy several inches.

In the video there is a bit of a discussion on metal shrinking due to age. I tried looking it up but all I got body shrinking with age (starting around the age of 40 roughly a half inch per decade) but that is another story not needed here. Getting back to metal shrinking think that shrinking might be somewhat true but not 100% sure of it but again, thin metal sure seems to shrink somewhat.

I think this is all good information to have. Not to turn someone off on doing it but informing them on what they can/could expect to deal with.

Lee

[shermer-high]

There is more than one way to skin a cat so they say. I did my pan eons ago and did a straight cut on the top of the tunnel but drilled the spot welds on the lower tunnel so that the cut wouldn't be straight through and cut the bottom towards the front it also helped with alignment. I also cut the Bowden tubes for clutch, e brakes, and throttle away at the rear frame horns and slid them through the frame and cut them the right length. Here is a couple old pics there was no digital cameras back then.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks shermer-high as that is one way and it is probably the most common way of doing the cut but the advantage of what was referred to as the "Z", cut by SCOTTRODS, gives a long 2 directional weld/load area taking some of the loading off the straight up and down welded cut.

10-01-06 001 copy.jpg

My blue buggy was cut using the straight cut method and the seam kept failing even when professional welders tried to do the weld correctly. As you can see under the turning brakes and down the side is where we had to box the whole area. As you can also see I ended up building a 3" body lift (my first try as major welding) to support the whole pan for light sand use. The seam was breaking even on the street and no squirreling around was done... by me anyway. The trans is a 6-rib bus trans so, since it sits higher the end of the body lift had to be specially built for it.

On one of the "how too" shows on TV years ago they were shortening of a long wheel base truck frame using the full through straight cut then the join was boxed on the open side of the "C"-shaped frame using doublers. On the second truck they again cut the frame straight through then on all three sides they applied doublers. On the last one they did the "Zee" cut was done with either boxing of the frame or used doublers, I forget which method they used for sure but I seem to remember they used the doublers method.

Thanks for the post and the pictures as all this kind of information may come in handy for someone in the future.

Lee

[shermer-high]

Thanks shermer-high as that is one way and it is probably the most common way of doing the cut but the advantage of what was referred to as the "Z", cut by SCOTTRODS, gives a long 2 directional weld/load area taking some of the loading off the straight up and down welded cut.

10-01-06 001 copy.jpg

My blue buggy was cut using the straight cut method and the seam kept failing even when professional welders tried to do the weld correctly. As you can see under the turning brakes and down the side is where we had to box the whole area. As you can also see I ended up building a 3" body lift (my first try as major welding) to support the whole pan for light sand use. The seam was breaking even on the street and no squirreling around was done... by me anyway. The trans is a 6-rib bus trans so, since it sits higher the end of the body lift had to be specially built for it.

On one of the "how too" shows on TV years ago they were shortening of a long wheel base truck frame using the full through straight cut then the join was boxed on the open side of the "C"-shaped frame using doublers. On the second truck they again cut the frame straight through then on all three sides they applied doublers. On the last one they did the "Zee" cut was done with either boxing of the frame or used doublers, I forget which method they used for sure but I seem to remember they used the doublers method.

Thanks for the post and the pictures as all this kind of information may come in handy for someone in the future.

Lee

I know about z cuts they are used also on truck frames. I'm pretty sure the show was on the Power block car shows. I was referring more about cutting the lower different than the upper which can also be done with a z cut tunnel. In the first pic you can see how far up to the front of the lower tunnel the weld is. In the second pic you can see the fish plate I forgot to mention (Required in my state) made from the cut tunnel pieces that strengthens the weld. I'm all about strength however my dad had a buggy built in the 60s that had the ugliest arc weld single cut and no fishplates or side frame rails. It got hit head on at 45mph by a Dodge Polara in 1974 it bent the front beam drove the steering column way back and shattered the tunnel in front of the shifter. Unbelievably that ugly arc welded seam was un affected it was weird. All this being said I would do things differently now more of a square tube frame although my car drives and handles great when it ran. I just took a quick video of the fish plate seeing as my buggy is apart at the moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyfxnVuoMH0

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think I would do a a square tube buggy based on several reasons. Rectangular tube maybe but only in the bottom tube area with the longer side in the vertical position. Square tube can bend: if you notice on the picture of the pan on the rotisserie that I installed a 1" fairly thick wall square tube but if the body lift that I built isn't connected to it on the other side of the pan it will bend and take a "set". With round tube you get some torsional ability but hard to do against a flat pan mostly because of the small, hard to get to, contact area.

Doublers, behind the tunnel then tacked into place with spot welds from holes in the outer panels then, when both sections are joined with a full weld it does help the disturbed tunnel and the potential grain direction loss of the metal.

Good conversation that might help others so keep up with the conversation please.

Lee

I added a correction or two.

[shermer-high]

What I mean by square tube is anything not round. So I would put rectangle on the perimeter of my floors similar to yours but more under the pan. I love the idea of welding the nuts into the rails. On mine I used a square tube that fit in the floor channel to be less visible and keep ground clearance. I would also run it to where the beam mounts to the frame head, I'm doing a Subaru swap and it would give better protection for cooling tubes under the pan. It would also offer stronger mounting for a hydraulic clutch. I had to run a connector from the Subaru hydraulic clutch master to the frame head because of flex when pressing the pedal. Everything is a trade off I like my fiberglass seat shells they are comfortable for me and with stock Beetle floor pan have storage under them, never enough storage. I also have a set of Miata seats that I made brackets for that slide on the Beetle floor tracks so I can switch them with no tools Miata seats are perfect buggy seats. Now I would put square tube for the tracks from the floor to perimeter rail and run the Miata tracks. My buggy is not lowered or used off road that would also change things Off road would have a lot of round tube and a cage. I have no desire for another lowered car My Eldorado has been on hydraulics for 30 years and if I want off road I have my truck. I just love the buggy as a go cart for the street it handles great and is stable at 100mph and hopefully will be better on gas with the Subi motor.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Dune house diary 081 copy.jpg

Mine went from this (I was already using it on the dunes)

leebuggy-12%20copy[1].jpg

(to this) Since my blue buggy is now off-road only (there was an incident, where no one got hurt, but some young kids put themselves at risk running out onto a busy street when I was driving by (it does look like a big toy like the small ones you can get at a store), so I don't use mine for the street anymore hence my thinking of how to do some things is skewed somewhat in the off-road direction.

Based on your pictures you already have done the 1" square tube and kerfed it into shape like I did on both my blue and my black buggy (the pix of the bottom of the pan when on the rotisserie). The pix of my blue buggy that has the top on it was taken when the buggy came back from having a cage built but before the body lift was built. As I said, the long sides of the rectangular tube does add up and down strength a square tube doesn't have and yes... there are a few disadvantages to that but mostly when going off-road... not it the sand though.

Art does take his turbo charged buggy up to those speeds but not me. I have had been in the light front end short wheel base situation and it scared the stuffing out of me .

Lee

[shermer-high]

That looks fun I wish I lived in an area for off road buggies but there is nowhere around here to use it. The full cage must make the car so solid.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

It did... but not as much as one might think. Without going into a long discussion it was several things I did to tighten things up. Mostly it was building the 3" body lift (my first as I was also in the process of somewhat learning how to weld) then making other changes bit by bit.

leebuggy-6%20copy[1].jpg

This is about at the 80 foot high area on the dune.

Dune riding is fun, riding to the ocean is also fun, pitching a tent and do some reading while watching others clown around are all great fun too. One of the things I can't do with the buggy is drive it on the street (no legal e-brake and having turning brakes for a couple of examples). While buggies can be built to do both you have to compromise also.

Lee