2056cc Build - Type 3 Swap

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sparker
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:02 am

2056cc Build - Type 3 Swap

Post by sparker »

Hi everyone - long time lurker here and on the samba. I've got a '69 Fastback that I bought a few years ago with a tired motor. I originally planned to build a T1 based engine, but stumbled upon two cheap & complete T4 engines on the local craigslist. So, 2056cc it is!

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Engine 1: 2.0 Bus engine, seller said it has around 5-6k miles on the last rebuild. Has been sitting for around 5 years, but turned by hand regularly and spins freely. I originally wanted to just slap this into the Fastback as-is, but decided to go for a bit more power...

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Engine 2: advertised as a 1.7 914 engine, but turned out to be a 1.8 with the 371S heads with stock valve size, but flycut to approximately 53.5cc per chamber. Was sitting outside for a long time, seized up, but I got it for cheap. Had almost all of the engine tin, so between what came with engine 1 and this one, I've got a complete set of tins.

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Pulled it apart, and found why it was junked! Someone dropped a nut down the intake, which made its way into the chamber. THEN they tried to get it out with a magnet, which also fell in! Must've made a nice "clang" when it squished!

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Witness mark on the head, after vapor blasting:

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I still have a lot of questions on how to get the most bang for my buck out of this build, and would appreciate any feedback. Here is my rough plan:

Rotating Assembly/Short Block:
• Reuse stock 2.0 case - this will work best for my Type 3 swap, rather than the 914 case
• Reuse stock 2.0 crank, assuming in good condition
• Reuse stock 2.0 rods *OR* get some H-beams
• 96mm Keith Black flat tops

Heads:
• Option 1: rebuild 371S heads with stock valve size (41x34); they definitely need new guides, and will need to be cut for dual springs for the cam I plan to use.
• Option 2: rebuild 371S heads with 42x36 or 44x36 valves, plus guides/dual springs.
• Option 3: AA 2.0 castings with 42x36 valves, dual springs, cut to ~53cc.

Valvetrain:
• Scat C45 w/ matching Scat solid lifters
• Solid rocker spacers
• Machined rockers for elephant foot adjusters
• Thorsten Piper adjusters
• HD rocker studs
• Dual valve springs
• Chromoly retainers
• Cut to length pushrods

Fuel:
• IDF 44's with 36mm vents
• Shortened CB T4/IDF manifolds

Exhaust:
• Vintage speed equal length primaries
• Vintage speed log muffler

With the C45, I've read that I should target between 9.0-9.5 static CR, which with a 53-54cc chamber will be easily accomplished with an 0.040 to 0.060 deck height and shims. I'm hoping to spin this up to around 6000RPM, maybe 6500RPM if possible, and put down around 120WHP. With 514cc displacement per piston, the 36mm vents should make peak power right around 5700ish RPM and pair well with a 41-42mm intake valve and the power band of the C45. Planning to run 93 OCT which is readily available here in Austin, TX.

Questions:

1. Rods - I've read that stock rod bolts can be a concern at my target rev limit. Also that the stock rods are HEFTY and ought to be discarded when building for higher rev's. This isn't a race car, but I drive my cars hard and don't want to window the block. Are H-beams required?

2. Pistons - how does the 24mm pin height compare to a stock 2.0 bus piston? Would I be better off to get a different length H-beam rod to use with these KB 96mm's to make life easier when setting deck height?

3. Exhaust - when removing the heater boxes, how do folks seal the lower tin for proper use of the thermostat? I'm leaning towards leaving it open and running without the thermostat, but still leaving the flap in place so that fan air is still distributed to the oil cooler and heads, and blocking off the lower ducts on the fan shroud.

4. Heads - from the photo above, and also the photos below, you can see that these heads aren't in perfect shape. I've got the witness marks from that squished bolt, plus some corrosion in the combustion chamber. They also have some corrosion along the inlet runners and intake manifold mating surfaces. Most of the valve seats look pretty good, although one has enough corrosion that replacement or re-grinding is in order. Valve guides are toast, as are the valves/springs/keepers/retainers. But after getting them blasted, there are no cracks around the exhaust ports or anywhere else.

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I figure that I can pull the studs on the IM mating surfaces, put down some JB Weld or similar, and bastard file it flat. Not sure if this would be a good idea inside the inlet runners, or if a light cleanup with a carbide bit would be better.

From a cost perspective:

Option 1 (stock rebuild, cut for dual valve springs): ballpark quote of around $650
Option 2 (big valve rebuild, dual valve springs): ballpark quote of around $850-950
Option 3 (new AMC 2.0 heads, 42x36, cut to 53-54cc): ~$1200 direct from AA

What are your thoughts? Are the 371S heads that I have toast? I'm debating between Option 1 and 3 the most - for the cost to do a big valve rebuild on the old heads, just a few bucks more gets me a new set with the better spark plug location. If the old heads are still worth rebuilding, will I really miss that last mil of intake and 2 mil of exh? Will I regret going with so much cam, in terms of frequency of valve adjustments or overall valvetrain life?

Thanks in advance,
Sam
wreck
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:07 am

Re: 2056cc Build - Type 3 Swap

Post by wreck »

I would sell the heads for what every you can get for them and get the brand new heads from AA . Also look at a set of Beehive springs , they run cooler than doubles and you don't need to weaken the guide boss to fit them ,http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Beehives-D ... ww-kit.htm

they can also be bought direct from Dan Ruddock from the samba classified's . I'm running pac beehives , first with a C55 and now a CB2300 , 47/40 mm valves with no float issues .

if you want the most out of it , don't run the log muffler , get a decent header . a friend with a 2007cc type 1 gained 20 WHP going from a VS log to a CSP header . no other changes apart from re jetting .
No matter where you go , there you are !
User avatar
Wally
Posts: 4564
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am

Re: 2056cc Build - Type 3 Swap

Post by Wally »

Nice fasty!
I would consider firstly if you want a closed decklid or not.
With the pancake cooling I would opt for that tbh. EFI with using the original (1700) runners would work very cost efficiënt if you know what you need to do wrt sensors and so 😉
User avatar
Clatter
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:01 am

Re: 2056cc Build - Type 3 Swap

Post by Clatter »

Killer project.. 8)

I'm doing a 2056 right now for my Fastback.
(and a 2270 is in the works).
(Too Many) Details --> https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=581759

914 tins are like they are made for the conversion..

I'm running a 163/86b with the beehives Wally linked.
On 1.8 S heads mildly re-worked..

1. I went with stock rods and ARP bolts because i have a good local machinist.
It was a lot of work, and if i was more serious, I'd a gotten some h-beams.

2. KB 96s will be flat-tops, and likely be just about right.

3. I ended up using some 411/412 pre-heater boxes shortened, and fins welded inside to get some heat.
They have a slightly bigger ID than bus heaters.
It's warm here in CA. Depends upon your climate.
We need -some- heat.. The 2270 will require a header, so I'm building a gas heater.

4. I'd also vote for some new heads, seeing the corrosion on yours,
however,
If you can get head work done for cheap,
It might be worth it to get those re-done.
Reason being,
is that with a 2056, it's hard to get the compression a good cam will want with 914 2.0 heads.
The good heads have chambers that are too big,
and you don't fly-cut type 4 heads if you can avoid it.
So,
For a 2056,
42 x 36 in a set of 1.8 castings is ideal.
Especially if you can relocate the plugs to the 2.0 914 location.

Better to just get a stroker crank and 914 2.0 heads.. :mrgreen:
Especially if you are ditching the heaters
(and possibly buying rods).

All a strategy..
Because i had my eyes on a 2270 already,
I just kind of went ahead and built with what i had..

If that makes any sense..

Keep us posted on this one.

Looks like it's time to get both cases stripped bare and the decks skimmed for measurement.
How many thou it takes to clean up will determine what kind of shape the case is in.. :wink:

A bunch of strategy and details are built into my painfully long long thread on TOS.
it's all in there somewhere..
Speedier than a Fasting Bullet!

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853
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